How To Question; placing screws on steep ice...

[rockermike]

I'm slowing working my way into waterfall ice climbing and realize (at least from what I can tell) that placing screws is the real crux of the game. Flaming out on a left hand hang while fumbling with gear seems to me to be the risk. Any suggestions or work arounds to make this smooth and graceful?

 

I recently got some Vipers with fangs. I'm thinking of hooking an adjustable daisy over the fang of my right hand tool while I place screw. Anyone do this? Is it a good idea or am I missing something. I know, I know, some say its cheating. I'm too old to worry about such things. I just want to get up the stuff safely. ha

 

Any other secrets for steep ice you guys can share?

[Alex]

It's considered very poor style to hang on your tool with artificial means beyond a wrist leash. You are, essentially, aid climbing. (But it's all kind of a dumb argument, since ice climbing is aid climbing any way you cut it.) If you really need to do this, you are

 

1) on ice that is too hard or steep for you to lead

2) all of the above

 

Steep ice is all about finding a rest, knowing how to place a screw efficiently, and having your systems dialed. Sharp, quality screws go a LOOONG way in this. Good technique will generally get you up any WI4. WI5 and harder ice is much more fitness, endurance, skill, and pure ballz.

 

When beginners get in over their heads and pump out placing screws, its of course smart to get the screw in, then hang on the screw, and perhaps lower and come back another day. But as a routine method of advancing up the ice, it's just going to get you into alot more trouble as it will give you a false sense of security. "I know I can just clip my tool anytime, so I'll go another 10 feet".

 

Leashless climbing, believe it or not, makes things more safe for a leader because it makes you honest and much more conservative in what you choose to lead. Might be worth a try for you. Also, it sounds like you are right-handed (like me), so even if you are hanging mostly on your left while placing, practice placing screws with both hands religiously, even the same screw with both hands (again, leashless comes in handy here). It will allow you to exercise different muscle groups during the climb. Also, on real steep ice if there is no rest, you basically place the screw a few turns, rest, switch hands, a few more turns, switch hands, a few more turns, and so on. It might be all you can do, and it might take a while, but it beats getting desperate and flaming out one forearm.

[tvashtarkatena]

A lot more people girth hitch 'just in case' runners to their harnesses than will admit it. If you get flamed out before you can get a screw in, would you rather NOT have one?

 

The key to keeping your arms fresh is in your feet. Stem whenever possible, but also (and I'm just putting this into practice myself) sharpen ALL your crampon points and stand sideways on one foot using those bottom points whenever a feature allows it. Go leashless to facilitate the ease of switching hands and keeping both arms fresh. Finally, keep your elbows down and in when moving/locking off; no chicken wings.

 

Sure, it's bad form to hang, but it's far worse form to fall, and, if you getting into leading, you will get into a situation where your arms blow out at some point. Ice often looks easier from down below than it really is.

[nkane]

Ice often looks easier from down below than it really is.

 

Isn't that the truth.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

when i'm feeling sketched and runout and placing a screw, I sometimes clip a draw into one of my tools (well placed), then clip the rope through that. After the screw is in, I transfer the draw from tool to screw. Still not the best style, but it provides a bit of a backup.

 

In general though, look for any sort of stances you can find, and consider climbing further between screws to reach those stances (assuming you arent in serious ground fall region).

[G-spotter]

hanging on a tool is aid, so ethically, it's the same deal as falling off or hanging on a screw - it means you haven't successfully led the climb

[dbb]

I'd echo what Trogdor said. For most climbs less that WI5 you can generally place screws in a restful position. Even on steep ice you can often find a stem between the surface features on the ice.

 

For placing screws, try and keep the placement about hip level. trying to place a screw any higher takes more energy and you'll have less leverage on it. The hardest part of placing a screw is getting it started. This is why it's good to have razor sharp screws. To get it started you need to be able to push in towards the ice. On steeper ice, this means pulling out slightly on your other tool to get the required pressure. make sure you're confident in that tool's placement. Express knobs speed up the rest of the process.

[Bug]

I aid ice.

If I get to a spot that I "should not be leading" I slam in a snarg and hang from that nasty thang while I place a screw.

 

So I am an aider and a skank and I have a lot of fun.

Am I going to hell?

[G-spotter]

no, but you have bad style and it is hindering your ability to progress

[hafilax]

Bad form in on occasion is survival. Doing in on a regular basis defeats the purpose of climbing IMO.

[Paul_detrick]

All ice climbing is aid, crampons,tools its all the same. When ever you start out doing something new there will be a learning cruve. You have to get on the ice and try it, to find out what works for you. Not everyone does it the same way as you can tell by replys. Try it on toprope first and workout a system. Form is all in your head, you will know when its right for you. Its about having fun and reaching your goals. Im old school I still use leaches on my tools, does that mean I have bad form, not to me. I agree with the statment falling is bad form. Go slow, be safe. And this is not a flame on anyone else, JMHO

[G-spotter]

So if "it's all aid", you think there's no difference between leading a pitch and not hanging or falling, and leading a pitch with a dozen hangs?

[Paul_detrick]

That would not be ok for me, but you could if you want, and I won't qustion it for you. Its up to you.

[Stemalot]

Placing screw on difficult ice is part of the sport. You can hang, but you haven't done the climb clean. Go leashless (I've switched this season). Because you can easily switch hand positions and from hand to hand. It's like hang on to jugs all day.

[Paul_detrick]

He was not asking about everyone elses view on clean climbing, he wanted to know some tricks on steep ice. Again what you think is ok to do is cool, but at the end of the day if he had fun, thats kool too. Another trick I have used in the past when I was learning was to take the rope and lupe it over your tool, bury the tool and its almost like a top rope. My tools have a notch on the top it sides right in. Easier than cliping the tool.

[wayne]

Ok here is what you do. Before you get up to where Dave suggests to place., tap out a small hole in good ice to help get it started. Get fast at placing them with one hand- 20 seconds should do it. Then Use bent -gate carabiners and get the rope in and keep firing till you get to that rest. the biggest risk with Aiding is your tool could pop.

Tim used to loop a rope over the top of his tools to get a rest in the pump.

Like rock climbing take advantage of your rests, both to rest and put in pro.

Also get used to the idea of running ti out a bit. Place before a crux or bulge. Get good at it.

[JackY]

"All ice climbing is aid, crampons,tools its all the same."

 

So it's toenails and teeth to climb ice in style? Do you climb rock naked?

[beaconben]

I read about half of this thread and I get so mad at myself for waisting my time reading all of this hot air. So here is some more. Do you think the Nose was climbed in less than 3 hrs or the Zodiac in less than two by not pulling on gear or other aid and french free techniques. Yeah this is the ice forum, climbing is climbing. what do you care what style other poeple climb in anyway. we are all climbing for some intangible reason, fun or adventure or whatever it is. considering your sense of style of ascent is not one of mine.

 

Warren Harding said something like this about the Early Morning Light-It was a grand piece of rock and I wanted very much to climb it.

 

And didn't Robbins put up The Prow

 

Somebody on this thread said you won't get better unless you practice pure free climbing techniques. You might find the opposite to be true. Expand your horisons.

[beaconben]

of course free climbing is the best and what we usually do when we go climbing. the point is that your going to want to climb a route that you can't free. I say climb it. the most pathetic thing in climbing is the dude that says "I am saving that route until I can onsight it", then never climbs the route

[G-spotter]

Two guys climb a route. One dogs his way up hanging on every piece and moaning about the pump. One styles it with no hangs,falls or whimpering. Who is the better climber?

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to answer this one.

[hafilax]

Dude posted the same question on ST and actually got some pretty good answers (I think).

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Two guys climb a route. One dogs his way up hanging on every piece and moaning about the pump. One styles it with no hangs,falls or whimpering. Who is the better climber?

 

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to answer this one.

 

the one having the most fun?

[mattp]

The most skilled ice climber is the one who can dash up WI-hardman without even working up a sweat. And that is a great standard to aspire to. It will also come in handy on harder climbs.

 

But most of us want to climb with the one who enjoys climbing, whose partners enjoy combing with him or her, and who generally gets up stuff. That is the “better” climber.

 

We can argue about style till we’re blue in the face, but “style” in ice climbing has very little impact on subsequent parties except in extreme scenarios where someone might place zillions of screws on the core pillar of a popular climb during the prime season (or something similar). Or maybe someone who hangs on a given pitch while other parties are waiting. Ice is a temporary, changing, medium.

[sean_beanntan]

I second the suggestion, using two topes, loop one over the head of the axe to "toprope" while you place your screw. Then when the screw is placed, clip the other rope to the screw. Is it aid??, well you aint hanging on the rope unless you fall. Just dont use a daisy, not enough dynamic in the system no matter how tight you get the chain. Either way, you cant be messing around wasting time and energy.

 

I read a lot aboutl ice climbing on this page but how many of you have fallen on ice screws as compared to rock pro. I am guessing the fall ratio are 50:1. And Mike, the real crux is placing screws that will HOLD. That is not a given, so do what it takes to put them in good, if that means resting, so what!!

[Paul_detrick]

Edited February 19, 2008 by Paul_detrick