Missing on Hood

[Bug]

Hey Pitts,

Well done!

Thanks for posting.

[minx]

thanks for posting. good to see that you got down safe and unharmed.

 

just a reminder to us all. the media often doesn't get the finer points of a story like this exactly right. good on the girlfriends for keeping their heads.

[korup]

Well done guys. It strikes me as idiotic that the Ski Patrol didn't listen to your girlfriends. If they were not worried yet, given their level of knowledge about your plans, skills and equipment, why call in SAR?

[ZimZam]

Well done, Mr. Pitts!

[dan_forester]

Hey Pitts thanks for sharing the real story.

 

The O and the various TV outlets do more harm than good sometimes in reporting these events. No offense barkernews, I know you do your best to educate your colleagues.

 

[denalidave]

Well done guys. It strikes me as idiotic that the Ski Patrol didn't listen to your girlfriends. If they were not worried yet, given their level of knowledge about your plans, skills and equipment, why call in SAR?

Probably more of a liability thing of erring on the side of caution. I'd guess a policy of calling a rescue to cover their asses would be the norm these days. If things turned out bad, it would be that "dumb ass patrols fault" for not initiating a rescue in a timely manner.

[sobo]

First off, let me say that there are plenty of kudos to go around on this episode.

 

Mr. Pitts and Justin, I applaud your pre-trip planning and subsequent initiative on your (nearly) complete self-extraction.

 

Also, your GFs deserve immense credit for "keepin' it togetha" in the face of media storms surrounding recent circuses on The Mountain of Doom.

 

PMR, you guys always

 

Barkernews, you too, for trying to edjumacate your colleagues.

 

And lastly, to the cc.commers who didn't immediately jump right into their Barca-loungers and start the speculation.

 

JohnGo:

Your Warren Harding post reminded me of another account of Batso in Yosemite... Seems on their FA of The Nose, the NPS decided the team "needed rescuing" on their last night on the wall. They lowered ropes to them, and rappelled down to the team, hanging in their hammocks and "Bat-cave". Warren looks up and says something to the effect of, "You're here to rescue us? Surely, you must be mistaken. Here now, have some wine."

[Bug]

Well done guys. It strikes me as idiotic that the Ski Patrol didn't listen to your girlfriends. If they were not worried yet, given their level of knowledge about your plans, skills and equipment, why call in SAR?

Probably more of a liability thing of erring on the side of caution. I'd guess a policy of calling a rescue to cover their asses would be the norm these days. If things turned out bad, it would be that "dumb ass patrols fault" for not initiating a rescue in a timely manner.

Bingo. Just visualize every politician in Oregon reviewing how they are going to react. Also visualize every ski patrol and SAR meeting where the topic "What to do with missing climber reports" comes up. It is a media circus. They have to be hyper reactive or risk getting roasted. Of course, they will probably get roasted no matter what they do.

[ashw_justin]

Some GPS's do not have compasses, and rely on figuring your direction of travel to get a bearing and give you a direction, which would suck for some situations I suppose - like falling off White river canyon, digging in in a whiteout, then having to actually walk for a while, stiff, numb wet and half frozen after crawling out of your cave the next day - possibly off course in deep-assed snow, to determine your course?

Even without a proper heading you'll get distances to pre-programmed waypoints and/or your current tracklog. Yes GPS is stupid to rely on, but it pwns in low visibility when properly used, and especially when retracing old tracks. It's definitely cheating. The only rational reason not to bring a GPS receiver is the weight/pack space (that's probably the only reason that I normally don't carry one).

[ivan]

[The only rational reason not to bring a GPS receiver is the weight/pack space (which the only reason I ever consciously decide not to).

how about poverty and an acknowledged lack of training w/ one too?

[tvashtarkatena]

Some GPS's do not have compasses, and rely on figuring your direction of travel to get a bearing and give you a direction, which would suck for some situations I suppose - like falling off White river canyon, digging in in a whiteout, then having to actually walk for a while, stiff, numb wet and half frozen after crawling out of your cave the next day - possibly off course in deep-assed snow, to determine your course?

Even without a proper heading you'll get distances to pre-programmed waypoints and/or your current tracklog. Yes GPS is stupid to rely on, but it pwns in low visibility when properly used, and especially when retracing old tracks. It's definitely cheating. The only rational reason not to bring a GPS receiver is the weight/pack space (that's probably the only reason that I normally don't carry one).

 

or that an experienced person can navigate just fine without one.

[sk]

thanks for posting. good to see that you got down safe and unharmed.

 

just a reminder to us all. the media often doesn't get the finer points of a story like this exactly right. good on the girlfriends for keeping their heads.

 

well said minx my dear.

 

sounds like things went well as far as B plans go Mr.Pitts.

 

 

[ashw_justin]

[The only rational reason not to bring a GPS receiver is the weight/pack space (which the only reason I ever consciously decide not to).

how about poverty and an acknowledged lack of training w/ one too?

Well I bought my GPS new for $100 6 years ago and that's only a fraction of the value of gear that even the 'poor dirtbag' climber carries on their person on a typical climb.

 

I don't believe in GPS training. It's just not that complicated, and the best way to figure out how/if it can be useful to you is to play with it in non-serious situations (it's just another source of information).

[sk]

Oh ya P.S. if you ever have the misfortune to be stuck out in the cold with a GPS unit that freezes up, i read a TR thate termial gravity wrote once that he was able to bring his back to life by tapin one of those hand warmer pakcet thingers to the battary area of the GPS. maybe it would work for a cell phone too.

[Bug]

Oh ya P.S. if you ever have the misfortune to be stuck out in the cold with a GPS unit that freezes up, i read a TR thate termial gravity wrote once that he was able to bring his back to life by tapin one of those hand warmer pakcet thingers to the battary area of the GPS. maybe it would work for a cell phone too.

Or carry a snack size zip-lock and utilize body cavities.

[ashw_justin]

The only rational reason not to bring a GPS receiver is the weight/pack space (that's probably the only reason that I normally don't carry one).

or that an experienced person can navigate just fine without one.

Yeah I know, but that's sort of like saying that if you know ways to navigate without a compass, then you shouldn't bring one. There are situations when your eyes can be more useful than a compass, and vice versa. The same is true for GPS vs. compass. Like I said it is just another source of potentially useful information.

 

I think your argument is based on an inherently irrational (although very romantically appealing) philosophy: to bring as little as possible for reasons other than logistical ones (weight, space, organization, etc.), usually either to 'keep things simple,' or to pride/challenge/train oneself on needing as little as possible.

 

The concept of training oneself to bring as little as possible is predicated on the fear of dependence, which need not be the consequence of carrying and knowing how to use anything that might be useful. Just because you bring an extra tool doesn't mean you have to use it. (Feel free someone to retort with the "if you bring bivy gear, you will bivy" incantation.)

 

Of course we all know that irrational romanticism can result in a more fulfilling recreational experience, so on that basis, I'm totally with you.

 

Edited January 17, 2008 by ashw_justin

[Bug]

Oh great!

Now Tvash and ASHW_ are getting romantic........

[tvashtarkatena]

The only rational reason not to bring a GPS receiver is the weight/pack space (that's probably the only reason that I normally don't carry one).

or that an experienced person can navigate just fine without one.

Yeah I know, but that's sort of like saying that if you know ways to navigate without a compass, then you shouldn't bring one. There are situations when a compass can be more useful than your eyes, and also when a GPS can be more useful than a compass.

 

 

 

I think your argument is based on one or two inherently irrational (although very romantically appealing) philosophies: a) to bring as little as possible for reasons other than logistical ones (weight, space, organization, etc.), or b) to pride oneself on needing as little as possible. Of course we all know that irrational romanticism can result in a more fulfilling recreational experience, so on that basis, I'm totally with you.

 

I do love the soft, young, hairless ones.

 

No, it's not like saying that at all. See, the way it works here is this: you put forth your opinions, and the rest of us put forth ours. The rest of us don't need your help formulating our opinions there, partner.

 

A compass weighs less than an ounce, and, not being battery or satellite dependent, reliability is 100%. It also costs about $10. Combined with an altimeter, these two small devices fulfill nearly all the navigational functions of a GPS, without the cost/bulk, and reliability problems of that system. GPS work poorly the forest, the situation when navigation is often most crucial. Furthermore, many people who use GPS rely solely on that technology (this is from observation); they do not parallel their efforts with compass/altimeter: if the GPS fails, they're navigation goes out the window.

 

I'm not knocking GPS, it has its uses. They're great in white outs on big peaks, for sure. But as a "no excuse not to carry one" item? A little hint for a youngster: Many of us have gone wherever we wanted to go in all kinds of conditions without one for decades now. Call that romanticism if you like; we just call it results.

Edited January 17, 2008 by tvashtarkatena

[ClimbingPanther]

I think your argument is based on an inherently irrational (although very romantically appealing) philosophy:

ooh, that's asking for a condescending reply from tvash!

nobody gets away with calling his views irrational

 

A compass weighs less than an ounce, and, not being battery or satellite dependent, reliability is 100%.

now now, we're not being a little one-sided to support our high horsey position here, are we? they're dependent on not being broken or lost, so I'd say that puts their reliability at less than 100%. same with maps... remember reading just a few minutes ago how theirs blew away in the high winds?

[Bug]

You have already broken it off.

Wow. Cold.

Which brings up my cheif complaint with GPS. It has to be warm to work. I too have successfully used compass and altimeter for decades.

However, when I got a GPS for Christmas a few years ago, I started carrying it with just to check it out. In one instance, I marked crevasse crossings. This was very useful in a whiteout at one such crossing on the way down.

I will always ADD it to my gear for winter ascents at least.

 

[ashw_justin]

A compass weighs less than an ounce, and, not being battery or satellite dependent, reliability is 100%. It also costs about $10. Combined with an altimeter, these two small devices fulfill nearly all the navigational functions of a GPS, without the cost/bulk, and reliability problems of that system. GPS work poorly the forest, the situation when navigation is often most crucial.

The only argument I see not to carry one here is weight/bulk, which is a non-argument considering my first post.

 

Furthermore, many people who use GPS rely solely on that technology (this is from observation); they do not parallel their efforts with compass/altimeter: if the GPS fails, they're navigation goes out the window.

Just because you carry a GPS doesn't mean you must forget how to use other devices. It happens, but 'many people are stupid' is not much of a real argument against the usefulness of something. I mean I think you're right that this happens, but not that it must happen.

 

I'm not knocking GPS, it has its uses. They're great in white outs on big peaks, for sure. But as a "no excuse not to carry one" item?

quotations misused here... I said "no rational reason" which has a completely different meaning/connotation.

 

A little hint for a youngster: Many of us have gone wherever we wanted to go in all kinds of conditions without one for decades now. Call that romanticism if you like; we just call it results.

Oh RLY? I bet you had to walk uphill both ways before we had bikes too, huh? Forgive me for biking instead of walking, even though it may be a detriment to my walking skills.

[tvashtarkatena]

 

now now, we're not being a little one-sided to support our high horsey position here, are we? they're dependent on not being broken or lost, so I'd say that puts their reliability at less than 100%. same with maps... remember reading just a few minutes ago how theirs blew away in the high winds?

 

Lanyards are another very old and very useful invention.

[sk]

Oh ya P.S. if you ever have the misfortune to be stuck out in the cold with a GPS unit that freezes up, i read a TR thate termial gravity wrote once that he was able to bring his back to life by tapin one of those hand warmer pakcet thingers to the battary area of the GPS. maybe it would work for a cell phone too.

Or carry a snack size zip-lock and utilize body cavities.

 

EEEWWWWWWWW

[tvashtarkatena]

Back to the original topic:

 

Way to go Pitts and Co. for a happy outcome.

 

And feel free to post a TR on the spanking.

 

 

[ClimbingPanther]

Lanyards are another very old and very useful invention.

don't worry, lover, I agree a compass is way more reliable, broadly useful, etc etc. I hereby affirm your worth and usefulness in this important discussion. I still don't own a GPS either. But the "ol' map blowing away trick" is a little unsettling. Ever tried to read one in 70mph gusts? I hope I never have to, but what if? Do tell me your deep thoughts, O great guru of the tried and true. I sit at your feet, humbly awaiting your condescension! Maybe you have them screenprinted on your shirt sleeves?

 

but seriously, what are some ideas for keeping a wind-sail of a map from blowing away? I'm sure some SAR folks have tips here, which would be useful to the two Hood folks, and to me as well.

 

one of my own tricks only works with my Gregory pack. my pack lid is clear plastic facing the inside of the pack, so a map placed in the lid compartment, facing the inside of the pack, can be read by opening the lid without ever removing the contents.

Edited January 17, 2008 by ClimbingPanther