Benazir Butto murdered

[joblo7]

the muffakar wont spell

[joblo7]

kolture best i can do......

[tvashtarkatena]

Pakistan is not an arab country, anyway.

[Bug]

Wait a miinute.

Don't they wear white robes and have dark skiin?

[Fairweather]

... assassination is no way for a civilized nation to effect change.

 

 

I can think of at least 3 cc.com'ers who have stated otherwise. Two of them are right here on this thread.

[jared_j]

Crackers has it dead on about the cronyism / corruption as it relates to Bhutto, no offense meant to the deceased.

 

It is amazing how she became a media darling in the US, and seemingly no major reporting on our country has delved deeper into the sources of her fleeing Pakistan in the first place.

 

We have a hard time thinking more than one or two steps in succession; it's a shame, since the "enemy of our enemy is our friend" modus operandi generally has not worked well for us.

 

That, and most of our governing officials are mis/under-informed, mildly racist, and also culturally ignorant. What would be cool is if Americans elected officials who seek to understand instead of pontificate.

[Bug]

The way other countries operate is very unlike our own.

Well, it used to be anyway.

Now that corporate America has bought DC we are not that different.

Money buys you anything.

Especially in a tribal oriented society.

 

[Choada_Boy]

Voted "Least Most Surprising News Story of the Year".

[kevbone]

 

It's not musharraf, it's the bombers who take away our freedom, and enslave us.

 

 

Musharraf supports the bombers......there for it is musharraf!

[Bug]

 

It's not musharraf, it's the bombers who take away our freedom, and enslave us.

 

 

Musharraf supports the bombers......there for it is musharraf!

But........according to the Bush administration, it was the work of alqueida.

Are you saying our president is a liar?

OK.

Are you saying he is lying again?

OK.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

[marylou]

I wonder if Shrub has figured out yet that Musharref's been playing him like a violin!

[kevbone]

I would bet the Bush crime family knew about it before it happened.

[canyondweller]

I would bet the Bush crime family knew about it before it happened.

 

This is one of the most irresponsible statement I've seen on this forum in some time (which is saying a lot since Dave Schuldt posts here). I hope you have an appreciation for your freedom to be so loose-lipped.

 

Carry on.

[Clavote]

Crackers has it dead on about the cronyism / corruption as it relates to Bhutto, no offense meant to the deceased.

 

It is amazing how she became a media darling in the US, and seemingly no major reporting on our country has delved deeper into the sources of her fleeing Pakistan in the first place.

 

We have a hard time thinking more than one or two steps in succession; it's a shame, since the "enemy of our enemy is our friend" modus operandi generally has not worked well for us.

 

That, and most of our governing officials are mis/under-informed, mildly racist, and also culturally ignorant. What would be cool is if Americans elected officials who seek to understand instead of pontificate.

 

Yup, there was something fishy with Bhutto and corruption.

I kinda figured the best way to remove her as an obstacle was to kill her. They did it.

 

She seemed to think she would inherit power from her father and she did play that up. With one bombing, you would think she would be a little more cautious. She was also in negotiations with Musharrif. Talk brokered by the US. Well the brokering is over, bt at least the US's Boy Musharrif made out OK since AlQueda did it. Strange bedfellows in "the fight against terrorism".

[kevbone]

I would bet the Bush crime family knew about it before it happened.

 

This is one of the most irresponsible statement I've seen on this forum in some time (which is saying a lot since Dave Schuldt posts here). I hope you have an appreciation for your freedom to be so loose-lipped.

 

I am going to have to disagree with you.....The Bush family and administration do not have a squeeky clean track record IMO. He has shreaded the constitution and is trying to make himself a dictator......why would he knowing about this murder not make sense?

[TREETOAD]

I would bet the Bush crime family knew about it before it happened.

 

This is one of the most irresponsible statement I've seen on this forum in some time (which is saying a lot since Dave Schuldt posts here). I hope you have an appreciation for your freedom to be so loose-lipped.

 

Carry on.

 

My son you must have been living in a canyon for the last few years

[Paul M]

 

still staggered from the loss. She was not perfect but could have been a real leader for pakistan and the Muslim world. It gets me how self-absorbed we are, thinking terrorism is soley directed at us when so many progressive minded people in the muslim world are targets for violence. this was oh so bad

[Clavote]

Maybe if Muslims did not have so many tribal wars there would be some peace or semblance of national unity. But there seem to be many factions fighting for control. Iraq under Hussein seemed to be a state that was progressing to real democratic statehood (eventually and maybe), or at least some sort of non-secular national unit, where tribal and religious differences were suppressed in favor of statehood. Most nations have gone through this sort of scenario (years, centuries) where there is a lot of bloodshed, language and religion are re-calibrated and history moves on (think the Americas, Europe, Asia, Africa, etc...)

 

I think that some nations have been caught in the midst of this process by historical expansion and collision of cultures and nations and were not able to complete this process (not that they have to, I mean shit it would be cool if they would stop killing each other and just elect people without secular concerns and move on from this).

 

Maybe the Muslim nations will split into lots of small countries (Iraq would like that. India and Pakistan did it), each still hating each other, or the world and media look away while these guys eliminate each other and a definite majority in charge emerges and we deal with them. Brutal, but it has been a tried and true method to settle this sort if shit between people and move on. I would hate to think this still needs to happen.

 

It seems that the Muslim world is still in the middle of that age old method to settle differences....bloodshed.

 

Terrorism...is that the new buzzword for enemy Muslims from other Muslims? Why not just call them what you have been calling them for centuries....Sunni/Shiite/insert your choice of sect or faction. Your enemy.

 

We're stuck in the middle of this shit right now. Billions of dollars spent and many lives wasted.

 

Bhutto was not really a uniter of anything more than her party or sect or whatever. She seemed to be a spoiler of national unity.

Her death was unfortunate and not helpful to anyone in Pakistan or the world.

 

Just make sure the fuses for the nukes are removed and no one crazy can push the nuclear button. The world has enough problems.

 

[Bug]

You ramble almost as badly as I do.

But the tribal stuff predates the Islamic stuff.

Muhammed used it to his advantage. He would divorce one of his four wives (allowed under Islamic law) before departing on each military campaign so that when he "converted" a new area, he could marry one of the cheif's daughters.

Family values.

[Bug]

Ibin Saud just sent the spoils of the latest seige to the people of the previous seige and helped them rebuild.

 

[Bug]

These two rose out of obscurity to unite disparate clans that had been at war for generations.

 

[Bug]

Ibin Saud was the first "King" of Saudi Arabia. He lived in the late 1800's and early 1900's. He was brilliant. Everyone who met him was taken by his charisma, including the queen mother.

The tribes of what we now call the Saudi Arabian penninsula had reverted to their ageless clan fueds after the death of Muhammed and the slow decay of the Council.

Ibin re-united them under his leadership without using religion directly. Instead he used the methods of David- they would conquer a city state on the edge of their empire. Then they would use the spoils of that win to finance the rebuilding of neighboring city states that had fallen previously. It all flowed toward the middle and kept everyone in line so they could get in on the spoils. They also contributed to the armies. There are those who think that the 12 tribes of the Jews were not united until the time of David. That Saul was not a king but a cheif. David united Israel (the north) with Judea (southern modern Israel) and created the first union of the 12 tribes. The original 5 books of the Torah were written during David's reign as a court apologetic. This is all heresy to fundamentalists of course.

Muhammed used David's "literacy of a people" to create the book of the Arabs in Arabic, for arabs. The Quran is channeled through Muhammed by God into the Quran. Muhammed was illiterate for the same reason Mary was a virgin. Long story.

Ibin Saud used David's economic policies of expansion.

I need more scotch to continue........

[Raindawg]

]The original 5 books of the Torah were written during David's reign as a court apologetic. This is all heresy to fundamentalists of course.

 

You don't know from Torah....really....you don't! Who taught you this was a fool.

 

 

I need more scotch to continue......

 

Please don't. Your seminary (oy!) or whatever ignorant training was at least partially a waste of time.

 

 

 

 

[Bug]

OK. Had another sip.

So we have covered the developement of literacy as technology in the Old Testament, New Testament and Quran, but we have not discussed the other elements of the traditions that contributed to the successes and longevity of these three traditions/mythologies/religions.

With the Old Testament there was also the industrialization of steel smelting and the use of this technology to expand militarily while keeping close track of it all with literacy (accountants). Ever heard of "The Wisdom of Solomon"? He was one of the first generation to be raised in a literate society with access to a library that could be read as we do - the same way we speek. It provided language translations and cultural nuances that could be played. and so on...

With Christianity, we have the Roman empire already in place and a large disenfranchised block of subjects who find hope in a Messiah who speaks of the value of love as apposed to money (wow man).

In the Quran, it is now 644 AD, the people of the sands are given direct access to God. The original "Protestantism".

 

Fast forward to now. We are entering the computer age. I remember when people thought it would be rediculous to have a computer at home. Only Geeks would do that. Now we are all praying to one right now. How will this new form of literacy be used? Will it unite traditionally warring "tribes"?

Or will it cement the elite in their towers of power?

 

Edited December 30, 2007 by Bug

[Bug]

]The original 5 books of the Torah were written during David's reign as a court apologetic. This is all heresy to fundamentalists of course.

 

You don't know from Torah....really....you don't! Who taught you this was a fool.

 

 

I need more scotch to continue......

 

Please don't. Your seminary (oy!) or whatever ignorant training was at least partially a waste of time.

 

 

 

Don't encourage me.

John Mendenhall had a student, James Flanagan (Phd), who published his theory about David being the first King. The rest of what I wrote about (court apologetic etc)is pretty commonly accepted in academic circles. They generally beleive that there are four major historical/editorial layers in the first five books. This would be different from but not neccessarily apposed to the teachings in seminaries. One such organization was called the American Academy of Religion. Professors from Harvard, Yale, and professors from many state funded universities were members. There are others.

Some of them are active Christians, Jews, and Muslims. They do not disregard the spiritual value of the books. It is a much richer pursuit than I am able to present.

I do not mean to insult or debunk your spirituality.