marylou Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I think Pattagu' kills the competition with a nicer cut on the down liner jacket, which is important to women especially. It's warm because it fits right. I have a couple of Montbell insulating pieces and they are warm, but not in the right spots for my fat female body. I don't have a Pattagucci down sweater yet, but it will be a contender next year when I look for an insulating piece that fits correctly. I will also look at FF, but I doubt they have a women's jacket, and besides I wonder who are their customers? I bought a down bag a year and a half ago and it didn't come with a differential drawcord. I have been waiting for a year for an estimate on putting one in, and after several emails, gave up on getting the information. I can only assume they have enough customers that they just don't care about stuff like this any more. I know they are a small company but I would assume repeat business still matters. I hate to bring this up on an internet forum, but it seems like they are more attuned to cc.com then they are to actual customers who walk into the store. Full disclosure: I did buy my bag on pro deal, so I saved around $75. Still, most companies offer full Customer Service on gear bought that way, and surprisingly, a lot of companies offer full CS on stuff sent out on media sample, whether you tell them that or not. Osprey recently made me a "Frankenpack" made of a men's packbag with women's suspension. They gave me a PD on it, but told me they would do the exact same thing for a regular customer is it was asked for. I've had Patagonia test gear fail on me and gotten a replacement, no quesions asked. I think a lot of people buy Patagonia based on that excellent Customer Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 (edited) As for Feathered Friends; sounds like they just don't understand the sweater segment of the down garment market. Maybe someday the customers they compete for will 'smarten up', but somehow I don't think that's where the problem lies. The fact that they sold out of all the ones in stock shows just how much trouble they are having competing for customers. Right... Down Sweaters, for those times when you want to pay $200 to be "almost warm"! Down/insulating jackets are primarily worn when you are at rest, and in need of some quick (usually temporary) insulation. I can never remember a single instance where I was too hot standing around in a down jacket (unzipped?), and too cold without it on. I'd love to be one of these people who (apparently) stand around at cold winter belays or frosty alpine mornings and suddenly get overheated due to a few minutes of sedentary down jacket wearing. However, in lieu of such a superhuman metabolism I'll take an insulating coat that weighs 3 ounces more and can keep someone much warmer or warm them much faster. Better a warm 'michelin-man' than a cold fashionisto. Um, FF doesn't understand the sweater market because of a) the 'dumb customer' arrogance they've revealed on this thread and b) they don't make one. They make jackets, and fine jackets at that. I've got one. Love it. Too heavy for mid summer use. Patagucci, Montbell, and Western Mountaineering all make sweaters, light jackets, jackets, and heavier jackets - the full line of customer choices, and, after all, that's what it's all about. FF doesn't. Oh, and BTW, FF is also ignoring the 1 lb down sleeping bag market segment. I've got several of their bags, but for a midsummer offering, I'll shop elsewhere. If it's cold enough to need a full jacket, I bring one. By your logic, Blake, I should bring a 2 pounder on every trip, because, hey, why not be warmer? But I'll choose a 7 ouncer, thank you, because it fits in my pack pocket when I'm climbing, and I don't need to bivvy in the damn thing. Nothing FF makes is that level of portable and compact. And I'll leave my 9 oz softshell I don't need in midsummer home, save 2 oz, and actually be warmer. Pretty illogical, I know. Of course, this isn't the BLAKE METHOD. We don't have the BLAKE METABOLISM. Frankly, my metabolism must be the opposite of yours. I've had a need for a a down sweater weight garment because my down jacket IS too warm, and bulky, and heavy, for years. No, not the BLAKE METHOD. More the Jim Nelson method, really. Carry only what you need. You're also way off base about pricing. FF stuff is significantly more expensive than, say, Montbell. I got my sweater for $112, no tax, free shipping, not $200. Only 80% cheaper, not very significant. It retails for $140 - still way cheaper. And finally, do you think city folks might want something that looks good, is really warm for the weight (but not necessarily warm enough to bivvy in), and easily fits in a purse or computer bag? Gee, ya think? Hey, FF: you're in the CLOTHING business, and, as REI figured out about a century ago, that's primarily the URBAN CLOTHING business. What your customers use the product for is their choice. I recall reading a story about how the Ben Davis pants factory down in rural Texas couldn't figure out why they were selling so many XXXL sizes. Can you say gangsta? Hello. And finally, the fact that FF or any store 'sells out' of something could say more about their poor inventory planning or pricing than anything else. Is there market expanding? Are they not addressing whole market segments when competitors have a full product line that is (as in this case?). I realize that you're not a business dude, but your argument? Come on. When a business says "We can't figure out why...", they're losing market share to someone who can. In this case, it's painfully obvious why. And Marylou's customer service comment has been echoed by friends; just this weekend, in fact. Heads up FF...if you even care, that is. Edited December 4, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Twashtarkena strategy: tell you FF doesn't understand the market over and over again. Patagonia stuff sells because of the Patagonia logo. Not because of how it fits or functions. I have 5 pieces of Patagucci gear that i've found as booty or thrift-stored over the years and it's all pretty much crap. also a pair of spendy climbing gloves that i actually bought retail last year that also suck. I'm not sold on Patagucci. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Patagonia stuff sells because of the Patagonia logo. Not because of how it fits or functions.ught retail last year that also suck. I'm not sold on Patagucci. I wouldn't know. I don't own any. Don't you have a pagetop you need to get back to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric8 Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I agree with Blake and FF, to sum it up quite being a tool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 (edited) I agree with Blake and FF, to sum it up quite being a tool Well, aren't you special. I'm not sure what exactly you're agreeing with, unless that it's cool to pontificate how other folks 'should' be making gear choices. There's no shortage of that kind of arrogance in this biz. I just don't happen to subscribe to it. The market, as indicated by the popularity of Montbell/WM, etc ultra lite offerings indicates that FF and the BLAKE METHOD are wide of the mark on this one. I just happen to agree with the market and explained why. If I were FF, I'd be taking notes. This is the kind of 'honest' feedback that companies almost never get and always need, whether they know it or not. Add to that that I happen to be a long time FF customer: I've purchased 5 of their sleeping bags and still have 4 of them. In any case, if you don't like some of the opinions on this thread, there are plenty of others you can grace with your omniscience. Edited December 4, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythosgrl Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 If you have the $$ to buy both the sleek *light* down jacket and the normal down *heavy* jacket then this discussion doesn't really pertain to you. I think part of what Blake was saying was, if you're going to spend the money to buy ONE down jacket, why would you choose that one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrogdortheBurninator Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Personally i view the lightweight insulation jackets as more of a replacement for fleece than for ultra warm down. I have a couple of ~12oz insulated jackets and I use them more than my FF Volant 3/4 of the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Personally i view the lightweight insulation jackets as more of a replacement for fleece than for ultra warm down. I have a couple of ~12oz insulated jackets and I use them more than my FF Volant 3/4 of the year. Same here...I've got the Montbell UL...synthetic....a couple ounces more than the down, but don't have to worry about getting it wet. It weighs 9 ounces, and packs down to the size of a nalgene. It plenty warm for summer alpine, when I don't need a 2lb down coat. The other nice thing about it is it fits nicely underneath my softshell, which a larger down coat wouldn't do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 (edited) Well, affording only one jacket is a completely different discussion. This discussion, as I understand it, is 'why the hell do people buy these ultralight sweaters? I sensed a little arrogance on the part of FF so I decided to give them some long time customer feedback. I argued that the ultra light sweaters are a viable, logical, and versatile choice for backcountry users such as myself as well as urban users for several reasons. My viewpoint is that, if you want to run a successful business, listen, don't preach to your customers. If I could only afford one down jacket (yeah, right...who on this board couldn't skimp a few beers and buy whatever they wanted gear wise) I'd buy the warmer FF of course. It's the only jacket I've had for damn near 20 years now up until my recent purchase. The thing's got more patches than Vista, but I love the fucker and refuse to retire it. But I've had a need for something lighter, less bulky, and not so warm for a long time now. Well, I've finally filled that need with someone else's product. Anyway, if I came on strong, my apologies. We're all friends here. Just don't tell me I look fat in my new sweater, man. Edited December 4, 2007 by tvashtarkatena Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlympicMtnBoy Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Yeah, I have the Montbell UL as well because it weighs less than some of my fleece jackets and is warmer. I don't view the down sweaters in the same league at all because of the moisture issue. It may weight less than the fleece it's replacing, but it doesn't replace the functionality if it gets wet and I've been wet in my Montbell many times. The down comes out when it's going to be cold enough to not rain, or super dry, and then often gets used as part of the sleep system anyways. Not that it has anything to do with anything. I'm jsut procrastinating at work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I tend to drool, so moisture will be an issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Its so funny. I havn't bought any gear of since I was last in the States so when I come back I'm going to throw down for some new stuff. The thing is here I just climb and usually never buy much gear. Part of it being I don't care for a lot of the gear sold here and the other is I'm climbing more have less time to look for gear. One thing that I've found out if your debating about light or lighter in gear...just don't buy it and it will weigh nothing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 One thing that I've found out if your debating about light or lighter in gear...just don't buy it and it will weigh nothing! I am thinking of the Tami Knight cartoon that begins with a little rat declaiming "I eschew clothing and free solo ice climbs naked..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucK Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 TMI! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 One thing that I've found out if your debating about light or lighter in gear...just don't buy it and it will weigh nothing! I am thinking of the Tami Knight cartoon that begins with a little rat declaiming "I eschew clothing and free solo ice climbs naked..." he..he...he...he... I was thinking the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Its so funny. I havn't bought any gear of since I was last in the States so when I come back I'm going to throw down for some new stuff. The thing is here I just climb and usually never buy much gear. Part of it being I don't care for a lot of the gear sold here and the other is I'm climbing more have less time to look for gear. One thing that I've found out if your debating about light or lighter in gear...just don't buy it and it will weigh nothing! Well, that's what a Mediterranean climate will do for ya. It's funny how quickly freezing your ass off can pry open your wallet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hafilax Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Don't you guys tire of these ridiculous arguments about Patagonia and the like? Let them make their urban garments and let the mountains decide which of their technical pieces pass the test. The urban market is where the money is and it funds the research that gets us the best gear. How much do you think a Gore-tex jacket would cost if people didn't wear them as a rain coat in the city? I would choose synthetic insulation for something like the sweater so I could wear it under a shell and not have to worry about it getting wet from sweat and the warmth won't be effected as much by the compression of the layers. Some might prefer the better compressibility of down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 I think 12 inches of rain in as many hours might have something to do with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Conway Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 So which little bitch moderator took a spray comment out of a spray thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 How much do you think a Gore-tex jacket would cost if people didn't wear them as a rain coat in the city? Probably about the same, given the cost of the fabric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvashtarkatena Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 How much do you think a Gore-tex jacket would cost if people didn't wear them as a rain coat in the city? Probably about the same, given the cost of the fabric. A lot less, because there'd be a lot more people to buy them, because people would actually be attracted to each other, have sex, and make more people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marylou Posted December 4, 2007 Share Posted December 4, 2007 Hence my recent switch to a Gore/Softshell hybrid jacket for city use. Gotta try to stay foxy when the raindrops are a'fallin'. Hopefully it will be a good ski piece too, we'll see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottP Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 So which little bitch moderator took a spray comment out of a spray thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted December 5, 2007 Share Posted December 5, 2007 So which little bitch moderator took a spray comment out of a spray thread? Damn, it is Trask ! They let you back on, well, welcome back asshole. I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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