Which is more dangerous?

[K^2]

:tup:

 

+1

 

I have little kids and climb alpine routes. I just tend to be a little on the cautious side, both in terms of route selection and in terms of canceling a trip or bailing if I don't like the weather or conditions.

[Bug]

I have an old friend who I met through legal battles. As we got to know each other we discovered that I was an active climber and he used to be. I invited him out which he accepted, and we started climbing regularly. He had two kids already and another on the way. I was not popular with his wife although she is a great person etc.

It was only after knowing them for a few years that I heard a gruesome story. They were instructors and had a class out in the mountains. At that time, part of the class was for the students to go out on their own for a climb. The route was carefully pointed out to them but they deviated and trundled to their deaths.

 

 

[Cairns]

I was just reading in the newb forum, and billcoe stated that he "still rock climbs, which is lower risk than mountaineering."

 

I was wondering what people think of that statement.

 

 

I agree with it.

 

Though not as math-like as Joseph H's Steve House/Tommy Caldwell equation I see the difference thus:

 

In both rock climbing and mountaineering you can have some degree of control over what you fall off. In mountains (REAL ONES) you have less control over what falls on you.

 

When my kids were young I did a few climbs that felt dangerous to me. The thought of leaving them fatherless was terrible but the forces at work were emotional, not rational.

 

Love is strange and Strangelove is not just a cute film icon. Sitting at home or making a plan to climb I'm a happy teenager, but turn thoughtlessly and bump my head on the rock and I'm 103 years old and need a nurse.

 

BTW, I work in a nursing home. Some of the residents have pictures of when they were younger. Y'know, so we don't see them just as wrinkled whiny incontinent airheads. It certainly is thought-provoking to be dealing with some old bag and then turn your head and see a photo of a stunningly beautiful woman. The intended effect is bi-directional, though. When I see a good-looking woman now I also see a shriveled hag.

 

So, I was sitting around having some such discussion with my wife. She was telling me how if I were to die anytime soon, she wouldn't feel too sorry for me, because of various stories relayed by me to her of the physical and mental decay of old age, not to mention our own parents' examples. Now, when having a discussion with one's wife there is often hovering in the background, and the foreground, the subject of one's relatively modest contributions to housework. And when I thought over the evidence and the probabilities it occured to me that she was right. I took the opportunity to let her know that in the event she could fall back on that cliche, "At least he died doing something he loved." Which, judging by all the time he spent sitting around with his feet up, was as close to nothing as he thought he could get away with.

 

 

[dinomyte]

Although a bit of a digression from the original question, I would say this in regard to the "fatherless children" that so many have mentioned.

 

In my opinion, ON AVERAGE, kids are probably better off with both parents. (I'm not getting into the whole "could two women or two men raise a child just as well" thing).

 

But, I grew up with one. I know a lot of people who grew up with one. Many of them (us?) turned out pretty well. Conversely I know many folks raised by both who have not turned out so well.

 

I try to live my life keeping the following in mind: Don't totally sacrifice tomorrow, but live for today. Meaning, I'm not going on vacation for 2 years and blowing all our cash, but we will be going on as many vacations, climbs, snowboarding trips, etc. as time and money allow.

 

And if I do go under the bus (or off the mountain) tomorrow, people will be able to say that I lived life as fully as I could.

 

And, I have confidence that my wife and family could raise my child as well as if I were around.

 

That said, I always try to mitigate all the risks one can, as I'd like to be around a bit longer!

[Cairns]

I'd like to be around a bit longer!

 

Be careful what you ask for. Add clause for relatively pain-free life extension. Unless Russian.

[G-spotter]

Genetically, once you stop reproducing your life is over anyway.

[ivan]

beowulf seyz:

 

"do not grieve - for every one of us

living in this world means waiting for our end -

let he who can achieve glory before death

when a warrior is gone that will be his best and only bulwark"

 

'course, he's just an animated wacko who can't keep his hands off angelina jolie...

[Bug]

Of all the ways I have come close to biting it, and there have been many, climbing incidents are in the minority. I have narrowly escaped, Nevada work farms, grizzly and black bears, moose, a vicious elk, countless near misses on the roads, one muscle-bound gay guy who tried to rape me, the occasional river accident, crab pots bouncing at me, boats breaking down in storms, Syrian Police, Syrian Army, Syrian secret Police, Syrian not so secret police, all armed and stupid.

Oh and two x wives.

What are some of your near misses outside of climbing.

I mean, lets put this "climbing is irresponsible" thing to rest already.

Death is lurking at every turn.

Don't waste your life on mediocre persuits.

Just learn to climb well.

[RuMR]

Of all the ways I have come close to biting it, and there have been many, climbing incidents are in the minority. I have narrowly escaped, Nevada work farms, grizzly and black bears, moose, a vicious elk, countless near misses on the roads, one muscle-bound gay guy who tried to rape me, the occasional river accident, crab pots bouncing at me, boats breaking down in storms, Syrian Police, Syrian Army, Syrian secret Police, Syrian not so secret police, all armed and stupid.

Oh and two x wives.

What are some of your near misses outside of climbing.

I mean, lets put this "climbing is irresponsible" thing to rest already.

Death is lurking at every turn.

Don't waste your life on mediocre persuits.

Just learn to climb well.

Oh come on, we know you...you were enjoying that...

[chucK]

Speaking of kids as partners, one thing that would be waaaaay worse than dying and leaving my kids fatherless would be going out climbing with them and having one of them get killed. Wouldn't matter if it was anybody's fault or not. I've gotta work pretty hard to imagine much worse. That story this year of the father and son on Dragontail made me wonder if the father found his son was dead so just decided to let himself expire due to hypothermia. I'll bet I'd consider it.

[chucK]

Genetically, once you stop reproducing your life is over anyway.

 

Wrong! Protecting, feeding, training, and nagging (when are you going to get married and give me some grandkids!) all may improve chances of continuing the lineage, more than being dead will (which is sorta what this thread has evolved into discussing).

[markwebster]

yeah, this thread is off course. But, regarding climbing with your kids, very painful process. You spend their whole life protecting them from danger, then they get interested in mom and dad's sport. I remember my son's first serious lead. He was 20 years old, 15 feet above a leg breaker ledge, struggling to get to the safety of the bolt. If he had fallen and broken his spine, would that make me a good dad or a bad dad? I was agonizing on the ground over my stupidity in letting him ever start climbing.

 

He chose to lead the climb, I've never pushed him, he actually dropped the sport for 5 years in his teens. They are adults, they can choose what they want to do, just like we do.

 

He is a great partner, a careful and thoughtful leader, like me. Sadly, I don't see either of them much as they are busy with college.

[Bug]

Of all the ways I have come close to biting it, and there have been many, climbing incidents are in the minority. I have narrowly escaped, Nevada work farms, grizzly and black bears, moose, a vicious elk, countless near misses on the roads, one muscle-bound gay guy who tried to rape me, the occasional river accident, crab pots bouncing at me, boats breaking down in storms, Syrian Police, Syrian Army, Syrian secret Police, Syrian not so secret police, all armed and stupid.

Oh and two x wives.

What are some of your near misses outside of climbing.

I mean, lets put this "climbing is irresponsible" thing to rest already.

Death is lurking at every turn.

Don't waste your life on mediocre persuits.

Just learn to climb well.

Oh come on, we know you...you were enjoying that...

No. This guy was artificially hung.

Anyone in their right mind, male OR female, would have run through the poison oak to get away.

 

[Cairns]

yeah, this thread is off course.

 

Or, it has connections.

 

 

But, regarding climbing with your kids, very painful process. You spend their whole life protecting them from danger, then they get interested in mom and dad's sport. I remember my son's first serious lead. He was 20 years old, 15 feet above a leg breaker ledge, struggling to get to the safety of the bolt. If he had fallen and broken his spine, would that make me a good dad or a bad dad? I was agonizing on the ground over my stupidity in letting him ever start climbing.

 

He chose to lead the climb, I've never pushed him, he actually dropped the sport for 5 years in his teens. They are adults, they can choose what they want to do, just like we do.

 

He is a great partner, a careful and thoughtful leader, like me. Sadly, I don't see either of them much as they are busy with college.

 

Seattle pediatric cardiologist Warren Guntheroff one day down at U Rock said how, when climbing with his 14-year-old son in the Cascades, he realized that if his son took a serious fall on an approach he would have to just jump off after him rather than go back and face his wife.

[cheamclimber]

mountains = big slab between place ments...NO BOLTS FOR PRO!

 

crags = get hurt... buddy helps you home!

 

mountains = fall and break leg...your pretty much f**cked

 

mountains = avalanches and rockfall...not so much at crags

[Sean_T_Stevenson]

Seems that the gear required is less as well, which might open it up to more people.

 

You have got to be kidding.

 

The only thing a rock climber carries that I don't is rock shoes, chalk, and a much more elaborate set of pro.

 

No crampons, double plastics, gaiters, overboots, down suit, ice axes/tools, gloves, mitts, glacier glasses, goggles, pickets, snow flukes, ice screws (come to think of it - scratch the pro comment). I shudder to think of what I spent on all this stuff - of course, I'm old school, and my trad rack is not full of $500 cams, but I still contend that mountaineering gear is a larger expense.

 

[Mtnclimber]

Both rock clmbing and mountaineering can both be equally risky. Main difference I have found is that in rock climbing you are better able to choose your level of risk. In mountaineering many of the risks are not visable ie.. rock fall or ice fall from 1500 feet above.

 

The other main difference is that inexperienced climbers can get in over their head much easier in the mountains. Have you ever seen a 5.5 climbing trying a 5.11 runout pitch. I have seen an equally inexperieced on a grade 4 in the Canadian Rockies.

 

The real tipping point for me is the commitment factor. If you fall and break your ankle at Smith, Index, or squamish help is a few minutes away. In the mountains a broken ankle is a major epic.

[AlpineK]

I haven't paid much attention to this thread. I've been interested in climbing since I was a little boy. At first it was just looking at pictures on the wall of all the cool stuff my dad had done. Both of my parents encouraged me to climb, but it didn't start out totally bad ass.

 

The first big achievement I had as a kid was to hike up Granite Mountain on my own on the second try. After that I did a lot of backpacking with my parents every summer. Eventually my dad had me out on Das Tooth at about 12 years old; he even let me lead the catwalk pitch. There came a time when both parents told me that if I wanted to pursue the sport then I needed instruction from an outside more personally disinterested source. At the time the only real option was signing up with the Mounties basic class. I did that for a while, but eventually I got sick of climbing with a bunch of old farts (of course now I am one ) and I met High School kids my age that had the same interest.

 

Since then I've done a lot of climbing. I've never hurt myself rock climbing, but I've come very close to death ice climbing, and I've been very lucky to be out of range of some major rockfall in the mountains.

 

As my dad introduced me to climbing he told me that rock climbing was just training for the real thing which is mountaineering. Personally I feel like I've had a better life experience even though through climbing I've gotten myself in some fucked up situations.

 

[Bug]

Life without climbing is like peanuts without beer.

[Dechristo]

Alpine

[G-spotter]

the most dangerous climbing is teh one having teh most fun

[TimL]

Interesting topic.

 

I've had many more close calls driving to go climbing or coming home than actually climbing. One of the most dangerious things in cragging is the belayers. I don't know how many people I know that have been hurt cragging because their belayer was an idiot.

 

This past weekend a couple friends and I were climbing some ran out slabs. Not sort of the material in which you can die, but it can leave you scared shitless. On the way back to the car we had to cross a talus field. I was skipping from boulder to boulder when a branch caught my pant leg and I ended up going face first into a hollow between two giant boulders. It was a big enough opening and my pack was big enough that they had to help me out. My friend thought I was dead or at least had a broken neck. Anyways, a couple facial scratches later and I was fine.

 

What I'm saying is it's a question of time and chance. Life is a gift. Hopefully as climbers we have a better view into that because it could be taken away. I'm a firm believer that when its your time, its your time.

[G-spotter]

You're driving on the highway. See that lamp pole? aim for it. Kill yourself.

 

Death is seconds away every time you drive on the highway.

 

If you want to be "safe", stop driving.

[Bug]

I am not a pre-destiny oriented guy. "Your time" is when you make a big enough mistake that you can't recover from it. That mistake could be anything from leading out too far to getting into the passenger seat with a driver who has just eaten acid.

I have personally almost lost my life many times. The frequency has decreased with age and experience which is good because it was sheer reflexes that saved my ass a number of times in the distant past. Dodging rock fall is a good example of good reflexes. But knowing how to AVOID rockfall is a good example of experience. The same mountain continues to spit rocks down the same gullies but my overall chances of being taken out by them has decreased by virtue of the fact that I know better when and where rocks are likely to be flying through the air.

I am reminded of the guy I was riding with across eastern Montana who hit some black ice while accelerating and went into a spin at 65mph. He let go of the wheel, threw up his hands and screamed "We're going to die!!!" "FATE" almost got us. I have spun out at high speed twice and it never occured to me to give up, let go of the wheel, and let "FATE" take its course. That is what's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So from this thread it would seem that there is another element of human nature at work here. Why do some people let go of the wheel when others would not? Why do some people have an unquenchable drive to survive no matter what, when others see futility in the same circumstances and give up?

[Cairns]

"Your time" is when you make a big enough mistake that you can't recover from it. I am reminded of the guy I was riding with across eastern Montana who hit some black ice while accelerating and went into a spin at 65mph.

 

Heard on the car radio last night on the way to the (new) Vancouver Cliffhanger:

 

"I try to always be present in the moment, because it might turn out to have been the defining moment of your life."

- Joe Wright, director of Atonement

 

 

So I turned off the radio and tried to pay attention to traffic.