US Army advertising

[No. 13 Baby]

Its funny to see Tucker get so rattled by someone who confuses him.

He reminds me of a dog barking at a motorcycle.

[shortstow]

First off a little about me before I post. In the Army and plan to stay in. Was in before, during, and hopefully after the war. Avid climber, cant wait for the weekends to climb. (can I do be in both clubs?)

 

Not all recruiters lie, like anything else you only hear about the bad ones. Same goes in climbing, only hear about it when things go wrong(Mt Hood is a prime example). Most of the people that say their recruiter lied couldnt take it, got kicked out and not just talk crap about it all. Granted some do get lied to, I have no doubt about that. It happens.

 

The average age a a person joining the Army last year was an amazing 26 years old. So for every 18 year old there was a 34 year old joining too. To me last I checked that was not a kid. So I am pretty sure anyone over 21 can make a decision of what they want to do. During the Recruiting process the recruiter is "supposed" to ask and talk to anyone who helps the recruitee in decisions, and that goes for any age.

 

If you dont like the way the Government handles the Military go vote and change it, because someone in the Army or any other brach says" hey lets go invade." That comes from G.W. Dont join any branch of service thats your choice, but atleast thank those who did so you can have your freedom of speech to bitch when and where ever you want to.

 

As for the guys I work with 1/2 of them have an Associates degree and another 1/4 of us have a Bachelors Degree, I think that is some what equal to a professional company that is out there. I know not everyones unit in the Army is like that. But that would be the persons fault for not going out and getting their own education.

 

Sorry, I had to get that out there it was eating me inside.

 

See you on the trails. Steve

[mattp]

You're a freaking nut case. Having a military for self-defense is perfectly acceptable, as is a police force. You can sing Kum-ba-ya, philosophize endlessly, and compose blathering poetry all you want, but the bad guys will not be affected. You NEED to have a force and use it at times. When and how it is appropriate is another matter, but you and SC are extremist pacifist nuts who don't even want to defend yourselves. The sane world rejects that idea.

 

A sane world would take a more active role in reading about, criticizing, and attempting to control or reduce the influence of the military industrial complex than have we - and this includes you and I both. Eisenhower warned us about this almost 50 years ago and yet we still have defense contractors running the appropriations process, oil company stooges setting our foreign policy, and a variety of corporate vendors actually running most of our war for us.

 

Afghanistan had a more clear link to defense of the homeland (though we could have taken out Bin Laden and destroyed the terrorist training camps a lot more effectively with less of a long term headache had we not invaded), but can you really say that this Iraq disaster had ANYTHING to do with defense of the homeland? Are these troops defending our freedom? Really?

 

As to the recruiters, some of you seem to indicate that support of our troops or support of the actual soldiers serving us dictates that we invite recruiters into our daily lives on cc.com - or something like that. If we complain that they are preying on the young and impressionable, you say that we must be pussy cowards yet most of you guys are just as unlikely to find yourselves fighting it out in Iraq as I am. Our friend Shortstow here is right: recruiters like anybody else come in all shapes and sizes and you will find some more honest than others, but the fact is that the U.S. military has been taken over for private profit - at a variety of levels from the very top (POTUS) to bottom (the truck driver delivering supplies) - and many of these folks most certainly DO NOT have yours or my interest at heart. Why would recruiters be in some special class of people we should not question?

 

Sure, these adds are not going to change the course of history. And yes, I hope the revenue helps the site owners not only pay bills but to embark on projects that will help cc.com grow and to contribute to the world of climbing (I know you rah rah guys hate the notion that there is a climbing community but that is what Jon suggested they want to do). But hey: these adds offer lots to talk about. Serenity even said Mr. Cocoa is obviously earnest in his opinions.

 

Kumbaya all around.

[joblo7]

First off a little about me before I post. In the Army and plan to stay in. Was in before, during, and hopefully after the war. Avid climber, cant wait for the weekends to climb. (can I do be in both clubs?)

 

Not all recruiters lie, like anything else you only hear about the bad ones. Same goes in climbing, only hear about it when things go wrong(Mt Hood is a prime example). Most of the people that say their recruiter lied couldnt take it, got kicked out and not just talk crap about it all. Granted some do get lied to, I have no doubt about that. It happens.

 

The average age a a person joining the Army last year was an amazing 26 years old. So for every 18 year old there was a 34 year old joining too. To me last I checked that was not a kid. So I am pretty sure anyone over 21 can make a decision of what they want to do. During the Recruiting process the recruiter is "supposed" to ask and talk to anyone who helps the recruitee in decisions, and that goes for any age.

 

If you dont like the way the Government handles the Military go vote and change it, because someone in the Army or any other brach says" hey lets go invade." That comes from G.W. Dont join any branch of service thats your choice, but atleast thank those who did so you can have your freedom of speech to bitch when and where ever you want to.

 

As for the guys I work with 1/2 of them have an Associates degree and another 1/4 of us have a Bachelors Degree, I think that is some what equal to a professional company that is out there. I know not everyones unit in the Army is like that. But that would be the persons fault for not going out and getting their own education.

 

Sorry, I had to get that out there it was eating me inside.

 

See you on the trails. Steve

 

we are all RESPONSIBLE for our actions.i am not judging you. you get that at your journey's end.if you are meant to serve then you will be blessed. my main point is that the 'leaders' of this country and other powerful ones on the planet are into commerce mainly.they are ruthless.

 

the soldier is the instrument used to attain those riches.he can be WRONG.

the way the powerful control public opinion is very clever and insidious.

it is necessary for us to feel threatened, for them to succed.

THAT is terrorism.

for this site to accept money from that entity (WAR PROFITEERS))is tantamount to backing our imperialist conquests and the misery we inflict on the world.

we are told it is to defend and protect freedoms and of kids future .

 

LIKE ALL great CON-MEN THEY ARE DOING 'EXACTLY' THE OPPOSITE.

 

i was told many stories from guys returning and THAT has altered my views.

stories about wmd's, oil, missing billions, looting, blackwater,haliburton, carlisle gang, etc etc. only the un -news we see in the media.

 

i am not offending anyone,( to quote a fellow cc'r)

i just tell like it is and they freak out or something like that.truth sucks on this planet sometimes.

 

thanks and may god bless you. be safe.

 

 

[shortstow]

I myself didnt agree with the terms that we invaded on. But I was there because I was told too and at the same time I volunteered too. I left seeing other good things that have not been on the news. There are a lot of us that have been over there that dont agree with how we are being used. We mumble and grumble over it all, but in the end I try to see the positive things that could and do happen. Positive things do happen over there, they just are not shown on the news. Goes back to what I said earlier, bad and wrong things will always over power the good things, espically on the news.

 

I guess until one of us is the Pres. we will be on here talking back and forth. One good thing though is, we have the mountains and wilderness where we can all go and forget about everything else thats going on in the world other than that one moment we are in with friends and nature.

 

See you out there. Steve

[foraker]

Speaking of the military and it being outside the 'climbing culture', I hope if any of you are ever at the 14K base camp on Denali, you'll express your views on recruiting to the fine gentlemen from the 10th Mountain Division who are often there assisting the NPS rangers.

 

I'm guessing, for some of you, that would be your first ever encounter with a soldier.

Edited September 29, 2007 by foraker

[KaskadskyjKozak]

A sane world would take a more active role in reading about, criticizing, and attempting to control or reduce the influence of the military industrial complex

 

We have 1.4 million active military personnel in an all-volunteer army. Compare that internationally, paying particular attention to some of the nations in the top 10.

 

Keep singing kum-ba-ya. I'm glad we recruit and have volunteers at the level we do.

 

 

So, just how small should our military be, exactly?

 

 

[foraker]

So, just how small should our military be, exactly?

 

Apparently only large enough to go on peace-keeping missions with the UN. If you got rid of all the people who signed up knowing full well what they were getting themselves in for, that'd probably just about do it.

[Fairweather]

Serious question: Would a weaker conventional force increase the chance our nation would resort to nuclear weapons?

Edited September 29, 2007 by Fairweather

[foraker]

Probably not. Other countries have smaller forces and nukes and don't use them. We've also been involved in other ugly conflicts and not used them. We'd also probably have a different force balance and work harder to join forces with allies rather than pissing them off and going cowboy. As we've seen, the nuke button is a hard one to push for several different reasons.

[No. 13 Baby]

I'm glad we recruit and have volunteers at the level we do.

 

Of course you are - those soldiers allow you to shoot off your mouth and fight the terrist safely from behind a keyboard.

[Fairweather]

I don't know. It seems to me that if some future president is looking at a shitty hand he's more likely to play his hole card. Tough to say. I think the case for a strong Air Force and Navy to keep China in check is a good one at least.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

I don't know. It seems to me that if some future president is looking at a shitty hand he's more likely to play his hole card. Tough to say. I think the case for a strong Air Force and Navy to keep China in check is a good one at least.

 

I a nuke is detonated in a US city, you can be damned certain that the American people will be calling for blood. We tend to keep our heads in the sand until we get hit, then go way overboard in the reaction. I wouldn't rule out a nasty scenario like that.

 

-----

 

And as for "No 13. Cocksucker": you're on my ignore list, you festering, syphilitic chancre sore on a rhinoceros' asshole. I don't see your puerile prattle. I do recommend you seek counseling, however - your stalker behavior has been noticed and is a sign of some type of obsessive-psychosis.

 

 

 

[No. 13 Baby]

I don't blame you for ignoring me. I have been publicly schooling your undeservedly pompous ass for a month now, and I'm sure your Phi Beta Kappa ego has taken quite a bruising.

Edited September 29, 2007 by No. 13 Baby

[archenemy]

I myself didnt agree with the terms that we invaded on. But I was there because I was told too and at the same time I volunteered too. I left seeing other good things that have not been on the news. There are a lot of us that have been over there that dont agree with how we are being used. We mumble and grumble over it all, but in the end I try to see the positive things that could and do happen. Positive things do happen over there, they just are not shown on the news. Goes back to what I said earlier, bad and wrong things will always over power the good things, espically on the news.

See you out there. Steve

To the folks who believe that we are conditioned to see our fighting forces as a group that can do no wrong: please re-read the above statement. This echos what I hear from my friends who have served as well. These sentiments sound like heartfelt lessons learned under conditions most of us will never face. This is what makes me recognize that the vast majority of our servicemen and servicewomen are just like you and me--people who want the best for their families and their fellow countrymen. And this is the way they believe they can most powerfully ensure that hope. These folks are not archetypes. They aren't movie characters. And they aren't ads in the upper corner of your screen. They are the ones who fight for us--in the wars you personally agree with and in the wars you don't. Personally, I am grateful to them.

[wayne]

Where do we get the complete lack of separation between supporting the troops and -or- not supporting the war?

They are not mutually exclusive!!!!

[sexual_chocolate]

I respect your views SC. I see you think about them, and have a heartfelt approach to them. Best to you.

 

Thank you, and I sincerely wish for the best to you as well.

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

I myself didnt agree with the terms that we invaded on. But I was there because I was told too and at the same time I volunteered too. I left seeing other good things that have not been on the news. There are a lot of us that have been over there that dont agree with how we are being used. We mumble and grumble over it all, but in the end I try to see the positive things that could and do happen. Positive things do happen over there, they just are not shown on the news. Goes back to what I said earlier, bad and wrong things will always over power the good things, espically on the news.

See you out there. Steve

To the folks who believe that we are conditioned to see our fighting forces as a group that can do no wrong: please re-read the above statement. This echos what I hear from my friends who have served as well. These sentiments sound like heartfelt lessons learned under conditions most of us will never face. This is what makes me recognize that the vast majority of our servicemen and servicewomen are just like you and me--people who want the best for their families and their fellow countrymen. And this is the way they believe they can most powerfully ensure that hope. These folks are not archetypes. They aren't movie characters. And they aren't ads in the upper corner of your screen. They are the ones who fight for us--in the wars you personally agree with and in the wars you don't. Personally, I am grateful to them.

 

Don't you see the inconsistency of his statement? He says he didn't agree with the war, but went anyway; he was "told too (sic)", and "volunteered too". I don't want to be harsh, but doesn't the first quote seem to indicate that he felt he didn't have any choice in the matter (he was "told to"), yet quickly covers this with an oh yes I actually "volunteered too" (so as to indicate that he still maintained autonomy, and that no one owned him). But how does one do both? Which one is the primary driver? One must decide if they were forced to or voluntarily agreed. There is no way both could have happened.

 

 

Furthermore, how can he justify the killing of so many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in a war that he admittedly thinks is unjust, and one that he partook in? Does that not set up the worst type of moral quandary imaginable? It's a quandary I would not wish upon any thinking feeling creature.

 

And I do not believe that "they" are fighting this particular war for me. No, the last time anyone fought a war that could be argued was for all americans was maybe the 2nd world war, a war of existential magnitude (and was that one really for ALL americans? What does that mean, really? It seems that some form of myth must be invoked to make this assessment believable, since certainly it wasn't for the jailed child rapist, or the disenfranchised indigenous, nor was it for Martin Luther King, or Thelonius Monk, although maybe just maybe it was for Louis Armstrong.Do you think it might have been for Earl Browder?

 

Maybe it wasn't for a person at all, but for an idea, a principle (as this particular myth might state). Perhaps WW 2 was for the idea of "democracy"? I'm not sure about that one; I think we would have engaged in that war even if Germany was more democratic than us. Would you agree with that one?

 

Was it for the continued survival of the Guiding Light that is our Constitution (you know, the Guiding Light that both George Bush and all military personnel are instructed to uphold)? Doubtful, since the Constitution was fighting for survival against a domestic enemy, namely the architects of the war (as is the case today).

 

Was it a war for the business elite? I'm sure the powerful business elite played a role, even though Fortune magazine ran Mussolini on its cover in 1934, extolling the virtues of his fascist business environment, and other business elites were still kickin' it with Germany until....1940?

 

I can't honestly say what that war was for. I know how it was sold to an american public, a public that initially resisted involvement (I'm sure it was sold to the military in much the same fashion: "Tell the boys we have a duty, a duty to God and country." And the boys believed (because it certainly wasn't about money and gi benefits and a college education, which is the main driver today....or was it?)).

 

No, I'm quite convinced that the idea of military personnel going out and fighting wars for me is rather far-fetched; at best, I would think that this would be the myth they tell themselves in order to justify the slaughter of fellow humans.

 

Or, maybe it's the adrenaline? I've heard that the thrill of war can't be beat.

[Dechristo]

It's quite obvious that, for some, war can never be justified. It is just as obvious that, for some, life on this Earth is not complete without it. The discrimination of the individual determines their place in that mix. Some, more than others, spend time trying to persuade that their position is "best" or "Right", that the other's is "worse" or "Wrong".

 

We all make "deals with the Devil", large and small, to get by in this life. In the end, often, it's only to serve our individual conscience that our personal "deals" are privately and interminably justified to soothe our troubled soul.

 

My attempt to persuade serves more to convince myself.

[kevbone]

 

You're a freaking nut case. Having a military for self-defense is perfectly acceptable, as is a police force.

 

I suppose your right....unfortunately at the current juncture....our military is only lining the pockets of a few "good" men. We are not defending ourselves from the Iraqi’s, because they did not attack us……so if Iraq did not attack us…..WTF is our military doing there. Certainly not (as you put it) defending us. sickie

[kevbone]

I don't blame you for ignoring me. I have been publicly schooling your undeservedly pompous ass for a month now, and I'm sure your Phi Beta Kappa ego has taken quite a bruising.

 

Bravo......

[mattp]

Cocoa, these are big ideas that the troops are not necessarily fighting for us, and that the individual soldier has some measure of responsibility to decide whether they should be obeying orders and participate in this efort. I think you are right on both counts, but these are not widely accepted ideas even even after the Nuremburg trials where these questions were "answered," and these points are rarely acknowledged by those who may be calling for a U.S. withdrawal. I'd be surprised if you get away with our warmongering brothers here simply calling you a pacifist.

 

To me, all of this raises a real question about the "rules of the game" when it comes to political debate, though. Many people deride the notion of "political correctness" -- and I share some of the disdain held for such notions that we should subscribe to a narrow political program and even a specific manner of speaking about certain things -- but isn't the notion that we must all "support the troops" used as the same kind of straightjacket on political discussion?

 

That political straightjacket prevented Congress from discussing the merits of Rumsfeld's war plan five years ago and it causes the more strident pro-military posters here on cc.com to hit you over the head with a club today. The idea that we shouldn't criticize the troops is simply another form of "political correctness."

[sk]

It's quite obvious that, for some, war can never be justified. It is just as obvious that, for some, life on this Earth is not complete without it. The discrimination of the individual determines their place in that mix. Some, more than others, spend time trying to persuade that their position is "best" or "Right", that the other's is "worse" or "Wrong".

 

We all make "deals with the Devil", large and small, to get by in this life. In the end, often, it's only to serve our individual conscience that our personal "deals" are privately and interminably justified to soothe our troubled soul.

 

My attempt to persuade serves more to convince myself.

 

well said.

 

i believe it was William Shakespeare who said "Nothing is so right or wrong as thinking makes it so."

 

as far as war, i heard a comedian say that a war would be better fought if world leaders got mad and punched each other in the nose rather than sending our young men to war. i am in no way a total pacifist. i believe there is indeed a time for violence. and i am glad there are men an women who are trained and prepared to deal with the protection of our country...should we ever need it. until then, i think we should bring our troops home and work on being a very self sufficient nation. we can be really good world citizens by helping some and giving some and not in-debting ourselves financially or getting involved in wars that can not be won or are none of our business.

[joblo7]

we cant afford not to go to war. we're broke. strickly bidness charlie.

[ivan]

we cant afford not to go to war. we're broke. strickly bidness charlie.

christ - can't here'dat and not reflexively post all the lyrics to the dead kennedy's "kinky sex makes the world go round"

 

Greetings:This is the Secretary of War at the State Department

of the United States

We have a problem.

The companies want something done about this sluggish

world economic situation

Profits have been running a little thin lately

and we need to stimulate some growth

Now we know

there's an alarmingly high number of young people roaming

around in your country with nothing to do but stir up trouble

for the police and damage private property.

It doesn't look like they'll ever get a job

It's about time we did something constructive with these people

We've got thousands of 'em here too. They're crawling all over

The companies think it's time we all sit down, have a serious get-together-

And start another war

The President?

He loves the idea! All those missiles streaming overhead to and fro

Napalm

People running down the road, skin on fire

The Soviets seem up for it:

The Kremlin's been itching for the real thing for years.

Hell, Afghanistan's no fun

So whadya say?

We don't even have to win this war.

We just want to cut down on some of this excess population

Now look. Just start up a draft; draft as many of those people as you can.

We'll call up every last youngster we can get our hands on,

hand 'em some speed, give 'em an hour or two to learn how to use

an automatic rifle and send 'em on their way

Libya? El Salvador? How 'bout Northern Ireland?

Or a "moderately repressive regime" in South America?

We'll just cook up a good Soviet threat story

in the Middle East-we need that oil

We had Libya all ready to go and Colonel Khadafy's hit squad

didn't even show up. I tell ya

That man is unreliable.

The Kremlin had their fingers on the button just like we did for that one

Now just think for a minute-We can make this war so big-so BIG

The more people we kill in this war, the more the economy will prosper

We can get rid of practically everybody on your dole queue if we plan this right.

Take every loafer on welfare right off our computer rolls

Now don't worry about demonstrations-just pump up your drug supply.

So many people have hooked themselves on heroin

and amphetamines since we took over, it's just like Vietnam.

We had everybody so busy with LSD they never got too strong.

Kept the war functioning just fine

It's easy.

We've got our college kids so interested in beer

they don't even care if we start manufacturing germ bombs again.

Put a nuclear stockpile in their back yard,

they wouldn't even know what it looked like

So how 'bout it? Look-War is money.

The arms manufacturers tell me unless

we get our bomb factories up to full production

the whole economy is going to collapse

The Soviets are in the same boat.

We all agree the time has come for the big one, so whadya say?!?

That's excellent. We knew you'd agree

The companies will be very pleased.