fenderfour Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 (edited) Related question: can anyone arguing in favor of nationalizing health care make a credible argument against nationalizing the production, distribution, and provision of food? You might be on to something there... Except that in it's current form, most people in the US ARE getting food. In fact, too much of it. I haven't heard about people with little or no education and poor employment prospects getting too much healthcare. ...and shit Edited September 17, 2007 by fenderfour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted September 17, 2007 Author Share Posted September 17, 2007 Related question: can anyone arguing in favor of nationalizing health care make a credible argument against nationalizing the production, distribution, and provision of food? You might be on to something there... Except that in it's current form, most people in the US ARE getting food. In fact, too much of it. I haven't heard about people with little or no education and poor employment prospects getting too much healthcare. Getting and eating too much (of the wrong kinds of) food are a big part of why our healthcare system is burdened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 You mean like providing subsidized water for wetland crops in the CA desert or price guarantees for wheat or cotton, or maybe getting paid to not grow something? Silly question dude. Silly response - yes. Silly question - no. Why not eliminate the private market for food and place it in the hands of the government? The arguments used to justify nationalizing healthcare apply equally well to food. If you want the government to be responsible for paying for, administering, and distributing all goods and services in the healthcare market on the grounds that the private sector is incapable of doing so efficiently, how is it that the same government could not execute the same tasks just as well when it comes to producing and distributing food? Seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 here we go again Here we go again is right……she was right in 93 and is right this time. She got defeated by the people who would loose money from her plan…..republicans and pharmaceutical companies. The health care system has to be fixed. Someone has to do it. Get off her back….. go back to posting your rhino-in-a-thong and 80's images of Janet Jackson and Eddie Van Halen. That's about the limit of what you can "discuss", 'Boner. You’re funny.....but judging by your crass, childish response……you know I am right….. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted September 17, 2007 Author Share Posted September 17, 2007 If you want the government to be responsible for paying for, administering, and distributing all goods and services in the healthcare market on the grounds that the private sector is incapable of doing so efficiently, how is it that the same government could not execute the same tasks just as well when it comes to producing and distributing food? Seriously. You could kill two birds with one stone and reduce CO2 emissions by ensuring that we are not "wasteful" in how foods are transported. Perhaps not everyone needs fresh mangos from Brazil in their grocery store after all, if it is killing the planet. And we could cut down the CO2 footprint by limiting production of "harmful" crops and livestock - comparatively speaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 46 million americans have no health insurance more than half of all personal bankruptcies have massive medical bills as a precipitating cause people DIE as a result of having their treatment denied or delayed by insurance companies If we pooled the money already paid by all americans in the forms of copays, premiums, taxes, etc, we would already have enough money for a single-payer, universal health care program. We already guarantee a free public education to all our children, let's do the same for health care for all americans! We need to get rid of for-profit insurance companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbw1966 Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 What about a gubmint sponsored HSA/catastrophic health plan that rolls over like a 401k? We got that here at my office and I think its the best of all worlds. Covers me if something major happens, allows me to control all aspects of my healthcare and what I don't spend rolls over year to year. Best of all, its very inexpensive. I wouldn't trust the same beaurocrats who brought you "Iraq I" and "Iraq II", the Dept of Homeland Security and Guantanamo Bay to control my healthcare. Keep it in the private sector but instill more adequate controls. If some insurance company denies me a necessary surgery I have recourse in the civil courts--I doubt that would be the case if medical care was nationalized. Every tried to get treatment at the VA? Not fun or easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 You mean like providing subsidized water for wetland crops in the CA desert or price guarantees for wheat or cotton, or maybe getting paid to not grow something? Silly question dude. Silly response - yes. Silly question - no. Why not eliminate the private market for food and place it in the hands of the government? The arguments used to justify nationalizing healthcare apply equally well to food. If you want the government to be responsible for paying for, administering, and distributing all goods and services in the healthcare market on the grounds that the private sector is incapable of doing so efficiently, how is it that the same government could not execute the same tasks just as well when it comes to producing and distributing food? Seriously. Because the market is working well with food production - relatively - if you can ignore the subsidies and such. There is no food production shortage. And because of the range of producers the profit margin is relatively low and competition high. With public services it is different. The market just does not do well with addressing health care. We have 25 million that are not covered. The data is there -we're getting scalped via profits, advertisements, and inefficiencies. We provide police service quite well in the public sector, libraries, schools, and emergency services. Other countries are doing health care for much cheaper and with better results, and covering all their citizens. If the food production network was as broken as the health care network you might have a point. But not so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 You mean like providing subsidized water for wetland crops in the CA desert or price guarantees for wheat or cotton, or maybe getting paid to not grow something? Silly question dude. Silly response - yes. Silly question - no. Why not eliminate the private market for food and place it in the hands of the government? The arguments used to justify nationalizing healthcare apply equally well to food. If you want the government to be responsible for paying for, administering, and distributing all goods and services in the healthcare market on the grounds that the private sector is incapable of doing so efficiently, how is it that the same government could not execute the same tasks just as well when it comes to producing and distributing food? Seriously. This is called "the slippery slope". Fact: The private sector is having no problems providing food at affordable rates to everyone in the US. It's working. Don't try to fix it. Fact: The private sector is not able to provide healthcare at affordable rates to a significant portion of the US. It's not working. Maybe we should try something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimbingPanther Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 people DIE as a result of having their treatment denied or delayed by insurance companies not being argumentative here, but is this problem really eliminated by having the government in charge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Every tried to get treatment at the VA? Not fun or easy. Actually took my father-in-law recently to get his medications and a hearing aid. It was a snap and about 25% of the costs through private insurance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimbingPanther Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 This is called "the slippery slope". Fact: The private sector is having no problems providing food at affordable rates to everyone in the US. It's working. Don't try to fix it. Fact: The private sector is not able to provide healthcare at affordable rates to a significant portion of the US. It's not working. Maybe we should try something. Fact: Lamborghini Ltd. is not able to provide Lamborghinis at affordable rates to a significant portion of the US. OK, a little ridiculous, but what are we honestly entitled to? Is health care a right? Maybe we should look into a constitutional amendment to settle this issue once and for all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 ... Life, liberty, and happiness Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimbingPanther Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 no, just the pursuit, no promises Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 OK, a little ridiculous, but what are we honestly entitled to? Is health care a right? Maybe we should look into a constitutional amendment to settle this issue once and for all. I can't help but think that you are one of those "It's ok because it's not me" kind of people. It could quickly become you or someone you care about, since its pretty obvious you aren't a humanitarian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted September 17, 2007 Author Share Posted September 17, 2007 OK, a little ridiculous, but what are we honestly entitled to? Is health care a right? Maybe we should look into a constitutional amendment to settle this issue once and for all. I can't help but think that you are one of those "It's ok because it's not me" kind of people. It could quickly become you or someone you care about, since its pretty obvious you aren't a humanitarian. it's all about "feelings" after all. that's how we should base these decisions. and doing "something" is better than doing "nothing". something. anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 people DIE as a result of having their treatment denied or delayed by insurance companies not being argumentative here, but is this problem really eliminated by having the government in charge? The waiting period (is this going to be covered or not? Yes. no. yes. no. appeal. re-appeal. etc.) would be eliminated, so yes, I believe "having the government in charge" could fix the problem. It's true that medical care through the VA is not the best, but it is better than no care (which is what 46 million americans receive) and it needn't be the model for what a universal health care program would look like. Look at the European models. Watch the movie "Sicko". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimbingPanther Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 i'm just playing devil's advocate here, i'm actually a weird conservative who does think some sort of national solution may be the best way for health care. whether it affects me or people i care about is really irrelavent, since i don't believe i'm any more important than the next person and it is clearly affecting people that others care about. as it so happens, it has affected people i care about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 I recently heard a story about a friend of a friend: She is currently a student and doesn't have medical insurance. She is very active, healthy, etc. She recently wrecked her knee while participating in sports. She needs surgery, but has no insurance and therefore can't afford the surgery. She will forego the surgery, her knee will not heal properly, and she will most likely have lifelong disability as a result. She is a REAL person as well as just another sad statistic. It could very easily happen to me (I don't have insurance at the moment) tomorrow. Could it happen to you? Your friend? Your family member? This country is fucked up that we let stuff like this happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fenderfour Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 OK, a little ridiculous, but what are we honestly entitled to? Is health care a right? Maybe we should look into a constitutional amendment to settle this issue once and for all. I can't help but think that you are one of those "It's ok because it's not me" kind of people. It could quickly become you or someone you care about, since its pretty obvious you aren't a humanitarian. it's all about "feelings" after all. that's how we should base these decisions. and doing "something" is better than doing "nothing". something. anything. It's not about feelings. It's about logic. I am the last person to do something for the love of the common man. I am a bleeding heart nothing. I do want to thank you for generalizing me based on a few posts on an internet board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted September 17, 2007 Author Share Posted September 17, 2007 I recently heard a story about a friend of a friend: She is currently a student and doesn't have medical insurance. She is very active, healthy, etc. She recently wrecked her knee. She needs surgery, but has no insurance and therefore can't afford the surgery. She will forego the surgery, her knee will not heal properly, and she will most likely have lifelong disability as a result. This is a REAL person. It could very easily happen to me (I don't have insurance at the moment) tomorrow. This country is fucked up that we let stuff like this happen. sounds like she is making that choice - not to get the money for this surgery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 I recently heard a story about a friend of a friend: She is currently a student and doesn't have medical insurance. She is very active, healthy, etc. She recently wrecked her knee. She needs surgery, but has no insurance and therefore can't afford the surgery. She will forego the surgery, her knee will not heal properly, and she will most likely have lifelong disability as a result. This is a REAL person. It could very easily happen to me (I don't have insurance at the moment) tomorrow. This country is fucked up that we let stuff like this happen. sounds like she is making that choice - not to get the money for this surgery. Yeah, she is "choosing" to suffer a life of disability rather than trot on down to the magic money tree and pick a few $10k bills off the low-hanging branches. Tell me more about the fairytale land you live in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted September 17, 2007 Share Posted September 17, 2007 Anyone got a breakdown of how much the uninsured make, how long they stay uninsured on average, etc? I've seen this data before, somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted September 17, 2007 Author Share Posted September 17, 2007 I recently heard a story about a friend of a friend: She is currently a student and doesn't have medical insurance. She is very active, healthy, etc. She recently wrecked her knee. She needs surgery, but has no insurance and therefore can't afford the surgery. She will forego the surgery, her knee will not heal properly, and she will most likely have lifelong disability as a result. This is a REAL person. It could very easily happen to me (I don't have insurance at the moment) tomorrow. This country is fucked up that we let stuff like this happen. sounds like she is making that choice - not to get the money for this surgery. Yeah, she is "choosing" to suffer a life of disability rather than trot on down to the magic money tree and pick a few $10k bills off the low-hanging branches. If I was in that position I'd find a way to pay for the surgery. Actually, I'd never let myself get into that position in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted September 17, 2007 Author Share Posted September 17, 2007 I recently heard a story about a friend of a friend: She is currently a student and doesn't have medical insurance. She is very active, healthy, etc. She recently wrecked her knee. She needs surgery, but has no insurance and therefore can't afford the surgery. She will forego the surgery, her knee will not heal properly, and she will most likely have lifelong disability as a result. This is a REAL person. It could very easily happen to me (I don't have insurance at the moment) tomorrow. This country is fucked up that we let stuff like this happen. sounds like she is making that choice - not to get the money for this surgery. Yeah, she is "choosing" to suffer a life of disability rather than trot on down to the magic money tree and pick a few $10k bills off the low-hanging branches. If I was in that position I'd find a way to pay for the surgery. Actually, I'd never let myself get into that position in the first place. and your anecdotal evidence proves nothing, btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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