Article on Barrabes

[cj001f]

There is a very interesting article on Barrabes & the whole overseas purchasing of climbing gear in today's (7/8/2002) Wall Street Journal, page A14. Among other things it mentions that 25% of Barrabes sales ($7.8million yearly) are from the US. I'll try to dig up my online subscription and post the full text.

 

Carl

[cj001f]

Here's the text:

 

Internet Sites Have a Toehold

Over U.S. Shops for Climbers

 

By KEITH JOHNSON

Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

 

Carlos Barrabes put his family's climbing-gear shop on the Internet five years ago, looking for a bigger market than the tiny mountain hamlet of Benasque, Spain (pop. 1,000). But he never thought success in the U.S. market would boomerang.

 

The U.S. accounts for about 25% of Mr. Barrabes's €8 million ($7.8 million) in annual sales. But he recently hit an obstacle. Since Christmas, his American suppliers have been reluctant to buy his gear, which they resell to U.S. customers.

 

Lower wholesale prices in Europe and hit-and-miss custom duties in the U.S. enable Mr. Barrabes to undercut his U.S. counterparts. That has caused a backlash among U.S. climbing shops. Much of the industry has begun calling for a boycott of "European discount dot-coms" to protect U.S. shops from Barrabes .com and other European Web sites.

 

"Are dot-coms spelling doom for climbing shops?" asked an editorial last month in Climbing, a popular American climbing magazine.

 

This is the normal globalization script turned on its head: Rather than the American leviathan crushing small outfits in foreign countries, a handful of small European dot-coms, led by a pair of isolated shops in the Pyrenees, has an entire industry nervous. Even though climbing gear is a niche market, the dispute illuminates some of the challenges of globalization. Price differentials, fluctuating exchange rates, and different business models in various countries can make a mockery of what some call the "borderless economy."

 

"It's absurd," Mr. Barrabes says. "They're just afraid we'll get huge if they leave us alone -- and they're right." He blames big retail markups and an inefficient purchasing process for higher prices in the U.S. "The truth of the Internet is that the best company is the best regardless of where it's based."

 

American rock and ice climbers have grappled with limited equipment selection and relatively high prices for years; many take advantage of trips to Europe to stock up on specialized equipment at lower prices. Until the arrival of Internet shopping, the American and European climbing markets remained largely isolated from each other.

 

For the past two years, though, Barrabes .com and a few other online stores have burst onto the U.S. outdoor market, helped by the generally strong dollar, which makes their goods cheaper. American climbers often discuss where to get the best gear at the best price and Barrabes's name is being heard more often. That is precisely the problem.

 

Are the European companies thriving simply because the American market is accustomed to hefty margins and burdened with an antiquated purchasing and distribution system? Or are they taking advantage of lax customs and sales-tax enforcement to undersell their American counterparts?

 

In its editorial, Climbing said continued growth of the foreign sites "could upend the U.S. climbing economy." The publication announced a moratorium on dot-com advertisements, a decision that was followed by other industry publications in the U.S. and Britain.

 

"We've got to buy time to let the industry get its game plan together," says Duane Raleigh, the author of the editorial in Climbing and now publisher of rival magazine Rock & Ice. "A lot of those retailers have been serving the community for 30-odd years; most of those dot-coms have only been around a short while. The government will have to come up with some kind of solution, like it did with steel, to put [gear sold by foreign sites] into line with domestic prices."

 

But trying to support mom-and-pop stores during retail revolutions can be tricky business. In France and Spain, regulation aimed at protecting small retailers backfired, says Jose Luis Nueno, a professor who studies the retail sector at Barcelona's IESE business school. Other industry dynamics complicate the issue of protecting small shops: Many local climbing outlets in the U.S. have succumbed to large retail chains like Recreation Equipment Inc. of Seattle. "Regulation does not work in retailing. It is an unstoppable force," he says.

 

Unstoppable or not, retailers are worried. "If this is left unchecked, it would put us out of business rather quickly," says Rich Gottlieb, owner of the Rock & Snow climbing shop in New Paltz, N.Y. He says he has warned publishers, distributors, and other retailers to take steps to counter the threat from foreign Web sites undercutting U.S. shops.

 

The nature of climbing gear makes it difficult to compare with books, music or other merchandise sold online, or even most goods sold in retail outlets. Many people in the industry stress that local shops are crucial because they provide on-site expertise, fitting, and advice for gear that's often used in life-or-death situations.

 

"I feel like I'm trying to protect climbers as much as myself," Mr. Gottlieb says. "I'm more a climber than a businessman, and there's so many things we do locally that you can't do online."

 

For many climbers, the issue isn't a problem. "Most people go to their local shop when they first start climbing and spend a bundle," says Charity Dominic, a rock climber and backpacker in San Diego. "Then climbers go online and realize, 'hey, this is where you really shop.' "

 

She bought her rack -- the hefty collection of slings, carabiners, cams, nuts and other equipment needed for rock climbing -- for about $600 online; the same rack cost about $1,500 in nearby retail outlets. "Unless the local stores start to compete on price, that kind of lobbying [against European sites] just won't work," she says.

 

European companies also bristle at the suggestion, raised in the Climbing editorial as well as by distributors and retailers, that they are slashing prices and forsaking profits just to carve a handhold in the U.S. "We stick to the prevailing prices in the French market," says Neil Hardy, owner of Telemark-pyrenees.com, another site popular with U.S. shoppers. "It's a very competitive market, with very low margins, and if we raised prices 50 cents we'd lose business. U.S. retailers are used to fat margins." The U.S. market accounts for about half of Telemark's sales, he says.

 

Mr. Barrabes says his model is similar. "Our prices are competitive, but they're hardly the bargain of the century -- and we're still turning a profit."

 

Selling online at a level consistent with the lower wholesale and retail prices in Europe, largely the result of a more competitive market, doesn't sit well with U.S. manufacturers either. "We're not very happy to see the Internet retailers doing what they're doing," says Christian Jaggi, managing director for European operations of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd. in Utah.

 

Black Diamond, which sells some of its gear in Europe at lower wholesale prices than in the U.S., stopped supplying Mr. Barrabes during the spring because he refused to stop shipping the gear back to the U.S. "U.S. retailers don't like to see cheap prices for Black Diamond gear on the web," he says, especially when they watch customers use staff time to try out gear, only to make the final purchase online.

 

Hit-and-miss customs payments are an annoyance. Duties are rarely levied on online purchases from Europe, while U.S. distributors with licenses to import European equipment for retail outlets are obliged to pay. "I don't think it's fair for European Internet companies to say I'm price-gouging when they are, in many cases, violating trademarks, customs duties, and sales taxes," says Ed Sampson, president of Sportiva USA, a distributor for Italian footwear maker La Sportiva SpA.

 

Many participants in the U.S. climbing industry concede the explosion of foreign Internet sites highlights inefficiencies and abuses in the American market. "I do think prices need to come down," says Mr. Gottleib of Rock & Snow. "I don't know if the U.S. market isn't being exploited to a certain degree."

 

Even Mr. Raleigh, whose editorial helped ignite the public debate on the issue, concedes the climbing industry was caught off-guard by a revolution that already had changed the face of much of retailing. Of the industry's campaign to protect U.S. companies, he says: "I don't know if this is really the best approach."

[carolyn]

Thanks for posting the article Carl.

Do you have the link to the article by chance?

 

Last weekend I walked into the store I do some part time work at (a locally owned, mom and pop outdoor retailer) only to have one of my co-workers share his story of spending an hour or so with this guy, setting him up with ice climbing gear...spent time showing him how to use the reverso even...gave him A LOT of personal attention. When all was said and done the customer said, "Thanks a lot for your help. Now I know what to purchase off the net." My coworker is a rep for grivel and a few other companies, so he had more than one reason to be pissed. I, myself have run into this from time to time as well...especially when trying to sell boots or shoes....spending time to size their feet, running around to get their sizes, letting them try a pair out in the cave or ice tower...

 

I dont blame the customer for wanting to get the gear at a better price online. Heck, I started working at the store because i COULDNT afford gear at retail. There may be people here who disagree with me, but I think it would have been much more appropriate for him to just say thank you for your help and leave.

 

Without supporting the smaller gear shops by purchasing gear thru them, where are you going to go when you want information on the gear your oogling? Where are you going to go if you want to see it before you buy it? If you want to try something before you throw out the bucks (gear isnt cheap any way you look at it). Easy access to route beta? etc.

 

(ya, ya, I know...a more experienced partner, someone else who bought the sheeet before you, someone who has been there before, blah, blah, blah )

 

ah, maybe Im talking out my

Just wanted to share my initial thoughts on the subject.

 

next....

[Steamer]

I have done the same thing, gone into the store, figured out what I liked and sized it and then ordered it on line. However, I have never told the sales person of my intentions. Ssshh, some people have no tact!

 

[ 07-08-2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Steamer ]

[bellemontagne]

Competition by European online retailers is a pretty hot issue these days. Personally, I am concerned by Black Diamond's decision NOT to supply Barrabes and Climbing Magazine's policy of not publishing ads for Euro online retailers.

 

Sure, prices for gear in Europe are cheaper because of the larger market for climbing gear in Europe and thus greater sales and revenue. I haven't seen figures on the size of the climbing market in Europe, but I think I believe the claim. Now, when my pair of Boreal Aces sell for $150 here in the US and ~ $65 on Barrabes, I have to ask if the differences between the US and the Euro market truly dictate a $150 price tag here in the US! So, the question has to be asked, where does this difference in price go? Marketing, shipping, duties, distributors, etc, etc??? Now, I believe some gear manufacturers do not rely on distributors, so there goes the middle man in some cases...

 

So, I ask again, just where does the ~ $75 difference in price go? It's gotta be going into someone's pocket somewhere.

 

The world's economy is changing, and companies are having to compete on a global scale. Companies with a viable product and an efficient and successful business plan will continue to be able to compete globally without bullying or twisting the arms of its retailers. Barrabes and Telemark Pyrenees found a way to compete with shops in the US. Is this unfair? I dunno. However, it is wrong to deal with the problem by bullying or twisting the arm of your foreign retailers. A better solution would be for companies to become more efficient so they can offer consumers a more competitive price for gear at local US shops. Companies should resort to being efficient and innovative in order to be more competitive.

 

Companies like Black Diamond need to be thinking (which I am sure they already are) about how they can streamline their distribution and business costs to offer equipment at a more competitive price here in the US. They have lowered prices on some equipment, but there is much to be done. WC Tech Friends in the US are about $10 cheaper the camalots (and much better in my opinion). Running a more efficient business is a much better way of staying competitive (and keeping its US retailers happy) than bullying its oversees retailers. Some people may have heard of Osprey packs. Interestingly, they DO NOT advertise. Now, that's a way of cutting back on expenses. They simply rely on word of mouth and their network of retailers to sell their packs.

 

Interestingly, I heard a rumor that Vortex packs moved production offshore not to long ago. Interestingly, I do not believe there was a price drop!!! (Correct me if I am wrong).

 

Now as far as mom and pop retailers go, I do what I can to support local retailers that I believe in like BackcountryGear.com in Eugene (and the Internet) as well as Redpoint in Terrebonne/Bend. However, I cannot justify paying an extra $75 for my pair of Boreal Aces just to support my local climbing retailer. That's CRAZY! When it comes to cams and some items, the savings from buying from Barrabes wasn't necessarily enough to justify buying online. But when it comes to climbing shoes, boots, Grivel, and Charlet Moser, the savings are VERY significant.

 

Now as far as supporting local retailers, many local gear shops SUCK. That is why people go to buy elsewhere. The shops that do suck do not deserve to be around anymore. Just because a shop is local does not mean you should buy there. Additionally, not all climbing shops carry what you want when you need it. That is another reason to buy online.

 

Hell, REI claims to be a "Co-op", but for specific reasons I choose to shop at BackcountryGear when I can. A Co-op??? Give me a friggin break! That's a whole other story...

 

How can someone honestly say that people should support their local retailer when in some cases there are such significant price differences between Euro and US retailers. That's easy for them to say - they probably get friggin pro deals!!!!

 

What's interesting to me is that Climbing Magazine gave into US retailers by removing ads for the online Euro shops. Why didn't they write an editorial encouraging manufacturers to streamline their operations (and not by moving production oversees) so they can offer US consumers gear at their local shops at a more competitive price? That seems like that would have been a better way to approach the problem.

 

So, buy from your favorite local shop when you can. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying from a Euro online shop when there are significant savings to be made. And if manufacturers do not like it, they simply need to become more competitive instead of resorting to bullying its retailers.

 

Werd to your motha...

[bellemontagne]

I will say that the person who spent lots of time with the salesperson only to buy online made a bad call. The individual salesperson invested some time with the customer. That time is worth paying a little bit extra for your gear.

 

I can't believe the guy told the salesperson he was going to go buy online. What a dumbass...

[IceIceBaby]

All I read is whine, whine, whine - noodles salad, noodles salad

F**K, is this country founded capitalism or have I been reading the wrong economical history.

this is our medicine!!!….I say suck it up and LOWER YOU PRICES stop fu**ing crying and do right BE AMERICANS AND NOT WOOSYS don’t listen to bias opinions like Black Diamond and Duane Raleigh they all looking for FATTER POCKET and suck us dry in the name of patriotism be patriot with your dollar and

do the right thing as American…Free competition I vote with my dollar to Mr. Barrabes or alike

Now watch for the finger pointing game …its not me its them…the bureaucrats in the government should let this tiny industry room to breath and subsidies by cutting the tax on the products…and they wonder why the inside tourism is dying …if you would like to keep the dollars at home , just make it more attractive to the consumers. The manufactories still making mint in volume vs. markup…so it possible. Lower price higher volume higher price low volume to a halt….I don’t know how to brake this to you but THE CUSTOMER ALWAYS RIGHT

 

[ 07-09-2002, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: IceIceBaby ]

[Rodchester]

"I will say that the person who spent lots of time with the salesperson only to buy online made a bad call. The individual salesperson invested some time with the customer. That time is worth paying a little bit extra for your gear.

 

I can't believe the guy told the salesperson he was going to go buy online. What a dumbass..."

 

I disagree...that guy sent a message that was heard loud and clear...that's why we're talking about it now. I'm sure his message was passed on to the manager and the owner. They got the message. Without that message they might think something else was wrong, now they KNOW what is wrong.

 

The sole questions is: what will they do to fix it?

 

This is the evolution of a micro economy. Many of us here by from Barrabes and other.coms. I almost never pay retail....because it is too high.

 

Why should we protect a mom& pop if it is poorly run and ineffcient. Would we protect REI the same way? REI is facing the same problem. Adapt and change or die.

[sk]

Price is not everything. There is a very small local gearshop that we try to purchase from as much as possible. There are 3 reasons I like to shop there. I've seen one of the owners climb, and I have a great deal of respect for him as a climber, when we go there he knows us by name and spends time with us. He knows my kids and has a good time with them in the shop, he lets them handle gear and encourages my 3 year old and my 6 year old to place gear and to climb.... he is also kind to my children at the local crag, and spotted my 6 year old on his best problem yet. If Back Country Gear(plug) dose not carry a brand that we want then we head to REI, or online. It makes me feel good to suport a local business run by people that I like.

[Rodchester]

I don't have a problem with the local shops...I actually support many. (Second Ascent Pro Mountain)

 

But the whole system is the problem. The local gear stores are only as good as the suppliers (ok ok and thier staff) and price IS important....but not everything. The time they are a changing....

[lizard_brain]

Yes, I support local shops, but when I can save over $50.00 on one pair of boots by buying them online, of course I'll go for it. I certainly don't buy everything online, partly because they don't always have what I want, and occasionally they charge MORE than the local shops. I buy most stuff locally, but for a occasional big purchase where I stand to save a significant ammount of cash, I'll go online. I may respect local businesses, but I'm not going to hand them $100 because of it.

 

Also, anyone know if there's a difference between the prices manufacturers charge American vs. Heathen retailers? Just wondering if that's where the price difference is coming from (an oversimplification, I know). The way I see it, either way the manufacturer is selling gear, whether the retailer is in Seattle on on your computer.

[Alpine_Tom]

This whole question of radically different prices in different countries is pretty mysterious to me. I understand why prescription drugs are cheaper in Canada, because Canada has price controls and the US doesn’t.

But that doesn’t seem to follow with climbing gear. Or does Spain have socialized recreation? It seems like a BD ice axe made in the US ought to cost MORE for Barrabes than REI, since it gets shipped about five times farther, gets handled by customs, and probably REI buys in larger quantities anyhow.

In the retail places that I’ve worked, years ago, standard retail markup was 40%.

A Black Diamond Rage ice tool has a list price of $199.50, so wholesale is probably around $120, more or less.

Barrabes sells it for 140.11, so that’d give them a margin that’s thin, but better than most PC hardware.

REI, however, sells it for... $199.50.

 

The argument is always that the local shops provide the expertise. That’s certainly true in some places, but that’s what they say with all sorts of stuff. Like bicycle gear, where you can get stuff mail order (without going offshore) for half what local shops charge, but in most cases the guy behind the counter doesn’t know any more about it than I do, and he’s too busy chatting with his buds to sell to me anyhow. I’ll happily pay more for gear from a local retailer who knows what he’s talking about (like PMS) than mail order, but I feel no obligation to subsidize the flagship REI store.

 

That said, it does grate on me that people will go in, take a salesman’s time, and then ask them to write down the model names and numbers, so they can buy it elsewhere cheaper. That happened to me often enough when I sold PCs. (I actually had a guy come in and ask me to help him hook up a printer that I’d demoed to him, he bought mail-order, and then couldn’t make work! Another customer, a woman, asked to borrow the yellow pages and the phone on my desk so she could call a shop down the street to see if they had something I'd recommended cheaper!)

[David_Parker]

I have mixed emotions on this issue. While climbing in the Dolomites a few years ago, I asked myself why I spent so much $$ to go to Europe to climb when I have such an awesome backyard to climb in. But it's the whole cultural experience that makes Europe different from the US. What I really liked was that there were small villages everywhere that seemed to be surviving. Compare these to towns like Marblemount, Darrington, Winthrop, Leavenworth. Many of the Euro towns do rely on tourism, but believe me if the majority of their citizens drove to the bigger town/City down the valley to shop at COSTCO for essentials such as food and clothing, the town would die. Mom and Pop stores rely on locals to shop AND buy. There is an inherent loyalty to spend your money with the people you live with. It's a lcalized economy that is quite fragile.

 

On the other hand climbing gear is very specialized and not really essential in the same way food and clothing is. So price is much more of a factor. The advantage Europe has is that it is much more densely populated and distribution of gear, for the most part, is not as difficult as the wide open US. Cost margins are not the same. Still, I agree that the mark up of gear in the US is proportionately higher and the profits are too. But we as a society expect a more luxurios lifestyle and seem overly consumption minded so higher profits support our lifestyle. I'm not saying Europeans aren't capitalists, but I think they have a better understanding of the balance of economy and have been much better at doing just that for hundreds of years longer. Why the US can't look at the things that work in Europe and LEARN from it baffles me. Their experience and mistakes are evident and we still continue to ignore it!

 

I shop online and am always looking for a deal for climbing equipment. I try not to be in a hurry and wait for sales and deals. I rarely pay full retail for anything. We here on CC are probably mostly like this, but we don't represent the general public. Why do you think companies like the North Face and REI cater to the general public with so much of their product. Because there isn't much profit in climbing gear to begin with. We shouldn't complain about their prices, but they shouldn't be pissed about losing business to online .coms. It's a double edged sword.

 

If Black Diamond can distribute product to Europe for less than the US, then there is someting WAY wrong with that. Europe can survive without BD no problem. BD needs to look at the big picture. They make excellent equipment for the most part and should be able to beat the Euro manufactures in price. I wonder how much of their ego gets in the way. Anytime a product is shipped to Europe and then shipped back to a US purchaser, well I think the writing is on the wall. They are charging too much in the US to the distributors of the equipment. So it's not the Mom and Pop store that's screwing us, it's the manufacturer's greed. Too bad for the Mom and Pop, their the ones really getting screwed. So I do like to support them, but just as we all seem to vote, our own pocket books have a limit and we can only go so far on principle.

 

I have always maintained there is no such thing as "economics." There are too many social isssues to render it a rediculous science.

[BigWallBigBallsRocky]

MEC has low markup and it keeps the whole CDN hardwear market markup low (like 20% instead of 40-50% in USA)and it manages to support a lot of staff and so on - and those guys are making $12CDN an hour and benefits too. Yet Valhalla Pure and Coast Mt Sports etc despite being direct competitors, and for-profit instead of a non-profit coop, are thriving on the same markups mainly by marking up there brandnamey outerwear more (main reason MEc does not sell Arcteryx outerwear is that arcteryx will not let them cause it would cut the price too much).

 

So either we are gonna have to drop retail prices to match or we're gonna get screwed one way or another. The whole issue of manufacturer and retailer conspiring to keep the price level high is kinda dubious anyways IMHO. So much for free market capitalism. Shit if y'all believed that maybe we would want some cheap Canadian lumber too instead of slapping on a protectionist duty...

[JayB]

Carl - thansk for posting the article. I respect Raleigh in a lot of ways but he is way off the mark on this one. Here's my rant on this topic from a while back....

 

The word from the internet rumor mill (rec.climbing http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&threadm=abbduc%24kh%242%40reader1.panix.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Drec.climbing%26hl%3Den%26btnG%3DGoogle%2BSearch )is that the recent editorial had its genesis when quite a few specialty retailers and US manufacturers threw a tantrum when Climbing and/or Rock and Ice ran an ad from a Dutch website in their last issue that actually listed the prices for the goods that they were selling. I guess so long as Barrabes restricted its add copy to “Check Prices” it was okay (?). Supposedly (“It’s on the internet so it must be true”) the specialty retailers sent back their entire shipments of the magazines, and a few manufacturers called and threatened to pull their advertising and voila – we have an editorial asking consumers to stop buying their goods from European retailers and continue paying over twice as much in the US instead. In my opinion, a magazine dedicated to climbers would have better served its readership by demanding that US manufacturers, distributors, and retailers explain why it is that American consumers should continue to pay twice as much as their European counterparts for the very same goods instead of going to bat for a system that is currently working in the interest of everyone except the consumer.

 

See rant below if imprisoned, terminally bored, etc…

 

In my opinion, they (the folks in the outdoor biz here in the US ) have quite a bit of explaining to do as it’s not:

 

-Tarrifs: The current tarriff levied on climbing equipment is 4%.

 

-Production costs: Production costs in Europe are comparable to, if not slightly higher than in America.

 

-Distribution costs: Commercial shipping on containers and semi-trailers probably adds 2 to 4 percent to the cost of any imported consumer item, tops.

 

-The exchange rate: The current exchange rate gives US consumers about 10% more purchasing power when we’re buying goods denominated in Euros.

 

-Retailing expenses: There’s no evidence to suggest that they’re higher in Europe than in the US either.

 

-The size of the market: It may be true that a greater percentage of European public climbs than in America, but it’s hardly a sport for the masses over there. Even if a greater fraction of the European public participates than in the US, a fractionally higher rate of participation does not translate into goods that can be sold at a profit for around half of the retail price that we’re paying.

 

-The size of the market, again: I’ve heard some speculation that because the market for climbing gear is limited, manufacturers and retailers have no incentive to lower their prices because that won’t translate into greater sales. Therefore – why not charge as much as you can for each unit and maximize your profits. This argument simply does not hold up because the reality is that the market for EVERY good is limited by demand, be it concrete, crude oil, or automobiles – or ice tools. Therefore, it does not follow that having a finite market leads to high/fixed prices – the only thing that can do that is eliminating competition. If any manufacturer is selling a good within finite market and can increase their market share by offering an equivalent product for a lower price, they can expand their sales and their profits at the expense of their competitors even if the size of the overall market stays fixed. It’s just a matter of calculating how many additional units you have to sell in order to compensate for the lower profit margin per-unit. At that point the manufacturers who are being undercut can either lower their prices or hope that consumers will be willing to pay a premium for what they have to offer.

 

The fact that manufacturers and retailers can sell their goods at a profit in Europe for less than half of what they are charging here is about as clear a refutation of the notion that the size of the market dictates that we have to pay $235 for ice tools, $140 for rock shoes, etc. Taking a look as US produced goods on sale in Europe is especially revealing. It’s very often cheaper to buy US goods overseas and pay to have them shipped across the Atlantic twice – once at retail rates (!)- than to buy locally.

In the end – if you as a consumer are willing to pay twice as much at a shop for the expertise, hands on inspection, etc – you are certainly free to do so. I just don’t think that those of us who do not value those services should be forced to pay for them.

 

If anyone out there actually has some factual information to share about the situation, I’d love to hear it. I’d be especially interested in hearing about the US distribution system and/or the contractual obligations (price range) that retailers have to abide by if they wish to sell a particular product.

"

[Dave_Schuldt]

When I was a bike mesenger we would get parts at wholesale, the markup to the comsumer was sometimes 100%. If we didn't get our parts wholesale I would have never been able to aford to be a mesenger. I would get pissed at the markups because I was poor and depended on my bike, the whole sale place didn't always have what I needed. I think the manuffactures see there gear as a luxery item. Luxery items have high markups.

With a small market the manufactures can control it, however, even large markets are targets for manipulation.

 

The solution? Think Darwin. Those who adapt will thrive and the ones who don't will die. the retailers and manufactures got caught with there pants down. Tough shit, didn't the see Amazon.com?

[Poseur]

quote:

---

The solution? Think Darwin. Those who adapt will thrive and the ones who don't will die. the retailers and manufactures got caught with there pants down. Tough shit, didn't the see Amazon.com?

---

And there it is.

[Dave_Schuldt]

Improvise, adapt and survive. U S Army

Whine, loby congress and screw the public. U S Industry.

[Poseur]

Be lazy, spend like crazy, cry about it. US Public.

[payaso]

Out of curiosity I just wasted a half hour of work time cruising around on barrabes' site. While they did have the BD ice tool, and rock shoes for cheaper, the BD and WC Tech Friends were about the same price as they go for here. It seems like only some of the prices are really good, while others are only normal. BD may be trying to break into the Euro market by selling gear at cost with the axes. Why aren't the cams cheaper? I'm not shopping for anything right now but when I need to I'll probably use this site. You would really need to know the EXACT size of any footwear you buy because it would REALLY suck to have to send something back to Europe.

[IceIceBaby]

So wadya think now….Petzl/Charlet Moser allow Mr. Barrabes one again to sell the good to US however the LAMEASS LaSportiva still refusing ….Hey Sportiva, guess who breathing by your neck- Salomon (which I now own…and I think I wouldn't go back to Sportiva ), Garmont- Great boots, Boreal and Scarpa that’s ok Sportiva stay aloof and don’t go to the peoples GREED IS A BIG MOTIVATION….I see the TNF take II happening

[erden]

I have not checked the Barrabes site lately. I would think that some of the advantages of that site may have been lost with the Euro gaining on the US Dollar. The parity is about 1-to-1 by now.

 

I would have to do my homework before I spend my hard earned US Dollars, both to figure out the total cost including S&H and to make sure that I would not have to send any purchases back for silly exchanges - so bottom line, I have no problem trying the gear here and then ordering it from Barrabes as long as it proves to be cheaper.

 

Erden.

[carolyn]

wow!

Lots of great thoughts on this thread!

 

First of all I want to reiterate that I dont blame consumers for finding the best deal and running with it...even if that means ordering online, overseas, etc. I didnt start buying climbing gear until I began working at the shop, so I wasnt aware of barrabes or other online deals until about 6-8months ago. I work a few hours a week. In exchange, I buy gear with my paychecks. If I have a big order, I save those paychecks and use the prodeal. Guess you could call it a bartering system in a sense.

 

I know everybody doesnt have the time to do what Im doing. Heck, I dont know how much longer I can fit it into my schedule. So what will I do then? Will I support my local shops or order online where I can get better deals?

 

I dunno!

 

I imagine I will do what most of you do....buy what you can online, used gear, etc and get the rest from my local shop. I appreciate hearing people defend/support their area stores for the most part.

 

My point in the first post (other than the topic was hitting a sore spot on that particular day ) was to emphasize how hard it is on the smaller stores, especially when people come in to look at gear, try it out, etc. only to walk out with nothing in their hands. It was a friendly reminder to support your local gear shops.

 

I forget who mentioned how it was good the customer told us he was now going to buy his gear online and walked out empty handed. I thought of that, but didnt want to ramble in my first post (kinda like I am now ). You are right. It needs to be brought to the attention of the management/owner/buyers...not just this one time, but every time it happens.

 

Its also been mentioned numerous times on this thread that the stores will need to change/adapt. Im wondering what people suggest. This topic is all fairly new to me, as I alluded to earlier. However, Im eager to learn and hear thoughts/opinions.

[RedMonk]

God forbid there is any competition on the gear market....waaaaaaaaaahh! but that means we'll have to sell our gear at reasonable prices!