whipping on pitons

[Cobra_Commander]

What do people think about taking whippers on pitons? Obviously there are the mank rotting ones that come out when a train rolls by, but newer, well-placed ones seem solid enough. The place I like to climb features a lot of them and I'm pretty confident after taking some short falls, but I've never seen a study on the matter. Starting to get on routes where the likelyhood of a big whip on one is a good possibility, and would like to get the "you're nuts" commentary before actually doing something that is nuts. Or maybe it's perfectly safe. They don't move when tapped, that's for sure. Sorry for the ignorance, but I don't bang a lot of iron (slooow pitch right over the plate...)

[Rad]

I look forward to the answer. It would probably be helpful to know their history and have a hammer to test them. When I clip pitons I only mentally count them as half a piece or less.

[MisterMo]

Somewhere way back in the dawn of time there were tests done and results published. The only ones I remember were for idealized placements (in jigs simulating horizontal cracks). For some reason the 10,000 lb failure for 1 1/2" angle sticks in my mind. Lost arrows & such were quite a bit less.

 

Pitons have, of course, held some monstrous falls, and many an underdriven piton has popped on the way by...

 

Relying on fixed pins for protection, particularly in vertical cracks, without testing them might not be such a hot idea...still it's probably done every day.

[tradclimbguy]

I see no difference in clipping a pin or a bolt. The only thing I like clipping more is my own gear since I know how good it is.

 

clip and go, clip and go.

[G-spotter]

There used to be 4 fixed pins on Neat and Cool and 5 on the buttress crux, now it's 0 and 1, entirely due to ppl whipping on them

[ScottP]

I remember that bugaboo on Model Worker @ Index always gave me the creeps. It was pounded in at a funky angle, but seemed to have a camming action when loaded. Still, I never wanted to fall on it. (Is it still there?)

[alps]

I recall a study done in the Alps published a few years ago. There's a lot of more or less old iron around there... If I remember correctly, they asked a bunch of mountain guides to estimate the strength of fixed pitons, then they tested them. The result in short: it seems to be near impossible to say how much they will hold if you didn't place them yourself. Even with lots of experience, you don't know what it looks like inside (corrosion, cracks expanding due to frost/thaw cycles, whatever).

[markd]

cobra,

go check out the beauties on flying circus! these pins would be lucky to hold a quickdraw.

 

while photographing arent a few years ago on blood, sweat and smears, he had the pin fall out in his hands while clipping it.

 

i don't trust them at that beautiful monolith in the columbia river gorge.

 

 

[Cobra_Commander]

markd - ugh. guess I best not trust, or at least, not fall. I think joseph has been doing some work though. Also nervous on fresh squeeze - placing gear behind flakes, yarding on flakes, clipping pins, etc. Nothing like watching your friend leading devil's backbone though, as it spat out gear while he shakely hung on. yikes.

 

thanks for all the input, better safe than sorry, or at least, sorta safe.

[markd]

Nothing like watching your friend leading devil's backbone though, as it spat out gear while he shakely hung on. yikes.

 

that was quite the lead! i was horrified for him ( eric ) while i was shooting photos from above. i had a clear view of the airtime he was flirting with.

 

that climb was missing two pins when he did it! proud lead and likely the second ascent.

 

were you on the free for sum anchor or windsurfer? i remember seeing three people on one of those ledges. he potentially could have landed in your lap.

[Cobra_Commander]

I was on the free for some anchor and that's _exactly_ what I was thinking when I saw gear sliding down the rope. I remember him shaking back down on the ground, and he had a lot to talk about. What a battle.

[layton]

whipping onto pitons is the shit and makes you a better person.

[JosephH]

Well, after six hours the other day, seven today, and about two or three more tomorrow morning Flying Circus will be open for business and all the pins will have been checked and reset or replaced if necessary.

 

Over the course of the anchor replacement project all the pins out there, with only a few exceptions, have been checked and either reset or replaced if necessary. The replacements came from John Middendorf's spare pin rack he ebay'ed so they have a good karmic pedigree from the Valley. And during that pin work short pins were replaced with medium or long Lost Arrows or Bugaboos. About a quarter of the angles (all bad) were pulled as good and solid pro is available in those placements.

 

In general, pins weld at Beacon and are not effected by the freeze thaw cycle, but the only pins really suitable for fixed pro out there are medium and long Lost Arrows, Bugaboos, and Hard & Soft Euro Spades. Short pins of all stripes don't last / hold, the knifeblades corrode through, and [some] angles do tend to freeze/thaw and work loose given how little actual surface area they have in contact with the rock.

 

As for whipping - I'd whip all day long on any of the pins on all of the routes I've checked, reset, or replaced, which is most of them. Several I haven't gotten to yet are Stone Rodeo which the top two small angles may not hold a fall given their age and from my experience to-date, though they are sheltered; the pins on Steppenwolf above Big Ledge; and the pins above the Arena and leaving up from the Windsurfer anchors. They're all on the list when I get time (and also running low on replacement pins which I'm look for more of).

 

For overall performance and on a percentage basis year for year - the pins have way, way out performed the bolts by a long shot at Beacon. True, they weren't SS bolts, but most were still bomb 20-40 years later. By comparison, almost all the bolts I replaced were bad and the very worst of the lot were placed in the 90's and all looked fine on the outside. There were a couple of knifeblades that were like that as well - but - knowing what I know now, I'd rather clip a good pin than a non-SS bolt any time.

 

Also, pins need to be maintained no differently than bolts. Somehow folks "get" that bolts need to be, but then assume pins don't. At least with pins you can check and reset or replace them easy - with bolts on the otherhand, what you see isn't always what you're getting back in the stone so knowing when they need replacing is a complete guess.

 

[ Note: Please do give me a shout if you know of any missing pins or run across a loose one or one you don't like the look of that I may have missed (or have any medium or long pins you'd like to sell or donate to the cause). Thanks... ]

[Cobra_Commander]

Awesome work as always, Joseph.

 

I'm assuming those ring pins on Dod's are the original hardware! I clip them for the good energy.

[JosephH]

Ah, can't say I'd be clipping any ring pins with high hopes and expectations - those are more about keeping the history...

[Cobra_Commander]

I'd sooner clip a pencil jammed in the sod there, but it's still fun to have your rope attached to them.

[markd]

thanks for the work on flying circus, joseph. it's a route that should more traffic than it does. looks long and sustained and the wide finish to top it off.

 

 

[billcoe]

[ Note: Please do give me a shout if you know of any missing pins or run across a loose one or one you don't like the look of that I may have missed (or have any medium or long pins you'd like to sell or donate to the cause). Thanks... ]

 

Shout: I have some I can donate to the cause, but I need to do some serious rummaging before the cause gets em, and I'm too tired right now. I saw your car out there today JH but missed you.

 

Also saw Ron Kirby and his wife Christine, starting to do Blownout as we got off of it, and ran into Pete as we interested near Corner/Young Warriors, and that was moments after intersecting Ivan as he soloed through as well.

 

Cobra, can't imagine you falling on anything, but I usually carry a single screamer and use it as a quickdraw, it helps the mental thing when you are eyeballing a pin. At this point JH has tested and or yanked and replaced damn near every pin out there.

 

Had someone fallen off the pedestal on Right Gull, it's probable, based on what Jh says of the status of that mank gear that they would have yanked the pin AND THOSE RANK BELAY ANCHORS AS WELL pulling everyone there to their deaths.

 

 

Amazing amount of work.

[Cobra_Commander]

Damn, totally missed you out there today Bill, you're pretty stealthy. Not sure how you missed JH as he was wailing away. Those folks on Blownout looked to be getting baked, and I don't mean the good kind. If it's any consolation, I saw him whip on the crux too. That pitch is every bit of its grade.

 

Thanks for the screamer idea. I'd be a little concerned about the oscillations as it deployed, but I guess it's better than a static yank ala funkness device. The pins are good, I should just suck it up.

 

Right Gull is definitely a safer proposition now. Just on bits of it today even.

 

 

[JosephH]

Bill, you must have just finished as I was rapping in as that couple were just starting up Blownout as I started the Flying Circus rap. It took a bit lot longer than I anticipated today, but it's done and Flying Circus is now good for climbing again.

[catbirdseat]

I've only fallen once on a piton and it was one that I had placed myself. I had no doubt that it was a good placement.

[Dechristo]

With the exception of routes that have a steward performing maintenance (a la JH - btw, kudos to you for your work), pins should always be suspect until you've banged on 'em to test/reset them yourself.

[JosephH]

Mark Cartier and his friend Kip grabbed the first go on the rehabilitated Flying Circus. Stout business, but all there to be done...

[billcoe]

Damn, totally missed you out there today Bill, you're pretty stealthy. Not sure how you missed JH as he was wailing away. Those folks on Blownout looked to be getting baked, and I don't mean the good kind.

 

Sorry to have missed you...again:-) I think the stealth thing is kind of a carry over from my younger days where I had a family, a house, bill's, a full time job and lots of rental houses to deal with, blah blah blah. I could only runouttherejumpoutofthecarrunuparouteor2thendirectlytothecarandhome.

 

Whew. Yeah, that kind of thing.

 

With my younger son now 17, no rentals, and a little extra scratch in the bank for breathing space, I feel I have more free time to hang out, but old habits die hard. I wanted to crank blownout before it got hot, and it worked fairly good except I was already somewhat dehydrated and had less than a quart for the 2 of us to share for YW. So I was getting tired when we topped out on that one.

 

Must have been over on that side when Joesph started wailing as I heard and saw nothing. I was going to help him the previous week but we passed on it for other reasons. JH had shown me the brand new ultrasharp Japanese woodchisel he was going to use to wang the trees that had grown up inside the crack out. I had never thought of that, as he was describing it, his saw couldn't get in the crack to cut them out and he thought of this idea....he even brought something to sharpen it.

 

The thinking was pretty sharp too. I stand in awe of the amount of work he's done out there. Just crap like this which takes a hell of a lot of time and effort....

 

Yup.

 

BTW, my token attempt to help others today on a family day saw me quickly running out and back to spray Poison Oak at the short cliff closer to town today (Portland Rock Gym O.... or PRGO for short). As I'm walking past a few climbers at the base with my sprayer in hand: chick asks: What are you spraying", I say, "Oak"....She replies: "Why? .. is it diseased or something?"

 

My mouth opens and I'm looking directly at her speechless when the dude behind her says: "Poison Oak".

 

"Ahhh" she says.

 

The 40' high Poison Oak tree right by the base that Kevbone, Jim and Kevin had pulled down, chopped off, then rolled off the hill was regrowing. Not from the bicep sized trunk, but right up from the roots. It was turning into a fairly sizable bush too.

 

I used Orthos "Weed-B-Gone" concentrate, which my wife had bought for the lawn but said: "Controls over 250 broadleaf weeds including dandelions, clover, chickweed, oxalis, ground ivy (Creeping Charlie), wild violet and other tough weeds."

 

It was half the price of roundup -actually 4 times cheaper as it is twice as concentrated.

 

Looking forward to seeing if it works. Hope I don't get burned trying to cheap out, I sprayed a lot of Oak all around out there today with it. If it doesn't take I'll pony up and get roundup and do it again.

 

I'll have some pins for you next time I see you JH, and I have one of Jims crabs I pulled off a tree today too.

[Cobra_Commander]

Mark Cartier and his friend Kip grabbed the first go on the rehabilitated Flying Circus. Stout business, but all there to be done...

 

I bet that sissy didn't do the sit-start to reasonable richard. Probably should go back and do it again so he can say he climbed it.