Ken Nichols convicted and fined for bolt chopping

[high_on_rock]

No, hell Dawg, you took all the fun out of it. Now what will I scheme?

 

Nice of you to go public Professor. Next can you prove me correct by bringing more reason and educated discourse to the posts. No one out there objects to your views, merely the objectionable manner in which they have been put forth. Come on Don, how about a one month hiatus on belittling people on the internet?

 

[RuMR]

H.O.R. it goes both ways....

[mattp]

Don,

 

Are you seriously arguing that you would have posted all the inflammatory rhetoric and stupid pictures if you were signing every post "Don Ryan?" I don't think so.

 

As you know, I have some issues with the basic premise of these bait and bash ethics threads, and I agree with anybody who says "it goes both ways" and "Pope and Dwayner have some valid points" but I don't think anybody - not even richardnoggin - has been as deliberately inflammatory as you and your pal Pope. I believe some of that has to do with your anonymity. Should we try a little experiment and change your screen name to "Don Ryan?"

[high_on_rock]

I will pledge right back to Dawg. Come on Professor, let's raise the level of discourse and educate, rather than belittle and drag the whole thing down. Rumr can be the judge of compliance.

[billcoe]

If you click on the supertopo link, one of the strong points of that discourse is that people are posting using their real names and referring to actual routes.

 

Regards:

 

uhhhh sincerley: Jim Johnson

 

Bill

[high_on_rock]

Does it help also Bill that you and I use accurate photos of ourselves?

[Raindawg]

Don,

 

Are you seriously arguing that you would have posted all the inflammatory rhetoric and stupid pictures if you were signing every post "Don Ryan?" I don't think so.

 

I'm not arguing anything. I'm stating a fact...and I've stated it to YOU in person before, at which time I've told you at least two things to your face:

 

1) I don't care if you like my style. If you knew me better you'd know that I'm satirical and enjoy humor. I don't particularly care for your style...so what.

 

And by the way, you might find some of the pictures "stupid"...but others find them entertaining and I have often used them to visually tell stories...perhaps you can't appreciate that.

 

2) Your mystical abilities to discern one's intents and purposes (e.g. "I don't think so" above) are weak....weak indeed. Don't even try.

 

As you know, I have some issues with the basic premise of these bait and bash ethics threads, and I agree with anybody who says "it goes both ways" and "Pope and Dwayner have some valid points" but I don't think anybody - not even richardnoggin - has been as deliberately inflammatory as you and your pal Pope. I believe some of that has to do with your anonymity.

 

I wholeheartedly disagree. I consider myself "moderately inflammatory" at best compared to some of the outrageous abuse (which I often experience myself) on this site.

 

Should we try a little experiment and change your screen name to "Don Ryan?"

 

Require that everyone on cc.com use their real name and I'll go for it.

[billcoe]

Does it help also Bill that you and I use accurate photos of ourselves?

 

No.

 

In fact, I might start posting photoshopped pictures of Robert Redford in his prime and passing him off as me. I think that my current pics show me to be fat, balding and unattractive. The real bitch is that I have so few of me young.....sigh.....

 

Nobody like's looking at that. Except maybe Anna Nicole Smith and she died, so what can ya say?

 

I don't know if those other dudes even climb anymore, maybe they just dream about the glory days :-)

 

Even Kevbone gets out still, and he's working full time and has a newborn.

 

The bone last month giving me beta on something or nother:

 

[kevbone]

 

Should we try a little experiment and change your screen name to "Don Ryan?"

 

Require that everyone on cc.com use their real name and I'll go for it.

 

I think that would be a great idea.

[high_on_rock]

Matt, perhaps that should be a "penalty" imposed upon any of us who get controversial in our posts, that the Moderators automatically make us post under our true identities. That way those like "Sherri" who merely bring sunshine into peoples lives can choose to be public or anonymous. Merely a thought.

 

I personally have no problem putting my name on what I believe in and what I say. Some would call that "honor."

 

[kevbone]

Matt, perhaps that should be a "penalty" imposed upon any of us who get controversial in our posts, that the Moderators automatically make us post under our true identities. That way those like "Sherri" who merely bring sunshine into peoples lives can choose to be public or anonymous. Merely a thought.

 

I personally have no problem putting my name on what I believe in and what I say. Some would call that "honor."

 

Interesting idea....but who gets to decide what is controversial and what is not?

[Raindawg]

Matt, perhaps that should be a "penalty" imposed upon any of us who get controversial in our posts, that the Moderators automatically make us post under our true identities. That way those like "Sherri" who merely bring sunshine into peoples lives can choose to be public or anonymous. Merely a thought.

 

I personally have no problem putting my name on what I believe in and what I say. Some would call that "honor."

 

Interesting idea....but who gets to decide what is controversial and what is not?

 

The Thought Police.

[high_on_rock]

The moderators. They will not police "thought", merely keep people from attacking anonymously.

[archenemy]

After reading through pages and pages of bolt bullshit, I found it refreshing to read this

Seeing as Raindawg willingly gave up his identity for his very cool archaeology post, I don't see how outing them will help anything. A little bit of detective work or a LW guidebook would easily reveal pope's identity too. Regardless of enviro or ego, their viewpoint still has merit and adds healthy balance to the bolting discussion. It is too bad they usually have to resort to personal attacks and off-topic humor instead of factual logical arguments.

[high_on_rock]

Come on Professor, a one month pledge to civil discussion and educated discourse. What say you?

[tomtom]

Too busy robbing graves to be civil.

[billcoe]

Please re-read the previous 3 posts tom tom.

[Raindawg]

As you know, I have some issues with the basic premise of these bait and bash ethics threads, and I agree with anybody who says "it goes both ways" and "Pope and Dwayner have some valid points" but I don't think anybody - not even richardnoggin - has been as deliberately inflammatory as you and your pal Pope.

 

So, Dwayner and pope are responsible for being deliberately inflammatory....I think the topic of bolts lends itself to argument and passionate opinions on all sides; especially because if some of us had our way, some of your "fun" might be curtailed. But let's take a look at some of the "civil" uninflammatory discourse offered by some of the other people participating in this topic, and then perhaps you can reassess whether we're the BIG culprits:

 

"From moderator “Off-White” in addressing “dmuja”:

For a born again wannabe dwayner-lite sycophant, you sure know how to be a sport climber…and it's so cute when you act all tough 'n sh*t…What a tool.

 

“Kevbone”, addressing “JosephH””

What an assh*le……” "What does think he is f$%king Hitler?

 

“high-on-rock” writes:

“From the casual observer, what is lacking from Don Ryan and Pope is rationality and civility. Calling people Dorks and posting Pee Wee Herman photos lowers the level of discussion far below any level that educated folks want to partake.”

 

NOTE: Read from the beginning of the topic to this point. The discussion from me was very civil and certainly rational from my perspective…no dorks…no Pee-Wee Herman…perhaps the only naughty thing I said up to this point was that calling sport-climbs “art” was conceited. Go ahead…check it out yourself…see who’s amping it up.

 

More from “hign-on-rock”:

“gotta tell you don, it blew me away to find out that you are actually an educated person.”

“The sad part is that you are the only one who does not realize that the high horse has stumbled and you are falling.”

“Give us your information Pope. Come on girlfriend, be brave."

 

JayB joins the fray: “Bill - don't distract them. With every post you coax out of them you're depriving them of a morsel of time, energy, or concentration that they'll need so bring about the closure of all sport climbing areas in the Northwest.”

 

Ken4ord contributes: “BTW poop….”

 

Kevbone addressing “Puma”: “Another asinine comment…..” “Well…..tough sh*t…..”

 

Dechristo chimes in: “what a dork”

 

A few more Kevbonisms: “......you need to get your head examined.”

“Wow......Pope.....that was a bitch slap if I ever saw one. Getting crushed at your own game.....wow!” “Oh man Pope......getting worked over eh?”

 

RuMR: “Dwayner and his sidekick poop are all about themselves...only themselves...and they will couch their attitude in a "more ethically pure" bullsh*t frame.”

“Come on, quit being a dick... f&ck, man, you and dwayner just make everything f&cking so black and white...get a f&ckin' life and take up a worthier cause...”

“cue raindawg with a richard simmons circle jerk poster...”

 

RichardNoggin: “YO POOP……get a life…STFU." “…too bad you cant see through your own sh*t”.

 

More from “high-on-rock”:

“The problem with Pope and Ryan is that they try to use the anonymity of the internet to be jerks without cost. No one has a problem with the views they put forth, merely with the junior high manner through which they put forth the views, and the “holier than thou” condescending tone they use. From here on out I believe I may send their identities by PM to folks upon whom they anonymously piss. Perhaps with a lack of anonymity comes accountability, and through accountability comes temperance.”

 

Yup...it's all Dwayner and Pope...gettin' the folks all hot and bothered and MAKING THEM express the poetry cited above.

 

 

 

 

[Raindawg]

Too busy robbing graves to be civil.

 

Well, apparently you don't appreciate my line of work...a few around here do, but I think I'll keep my discoveries off cc.com next time. Those who are interested can contact me and I'll be pleased to let them know what's new and exciting.

[JayB]

Let's get back to the part of the conversation where the two of you attempt to define a set of ethical criteria in bolts used to establish and protect slab routes are acceptable, but those used to establish and protect face climbs are not.

[pope]

As you know, I have some issues with the basic premise of these bait and bash ethics threads, and I agree with anybody who says "it goes both ways" and "Pope and Dwayner have some valid points" but I don't think anybody - not even richardnoggin - has been as deliberately inflammatory as you and your pal Pope.

 

So, Dwayner and pope are responsible for being deliberately inflammatory....I think the topic of bolts lends itself to argument and passionate opinions on all sides; especially because if some of us had our way, some of your "fun" might be curtailed. But let's take a look at some of the "civil" uninflammatory discourse offered by some of the other people participating in this topic, and then perhaps you can reassess whether we're the BIG culprits:

 

"From moderator “Off-White” in addressing “dmuja”:

For a born again wannabe dwayner-lite sycophant, you sure know how to be a sport climber…and it's so cute when you act all tough 'n sh*t…What a tool.

 

“Kevbone”, addressing “JosephH””

What an assh*le……” "What does think he is f$%king Hitler?

 

“high-on-rock” writes:

“From the casual observer, what is lacking from Don Ryan and Pope is rationality and civility. Calling people Dorks and posting Pee Wee Herman photos lowers the level of discussion far below any level that educated folks want to partake.”

 

NOTE: Read from the beginning of the topic to this point. The discussion from me was very civil and certainly rational from my perspective…no dorks…no Pee-Wee Herman…perhaps the only naughty thing I said up to this point was that calling sport-climbs “art” was conceited. Go ahead…check it out yourself…see who’s amping it up.

 

More from “hign-on-rock”:

“gotta tell you don, it blew me away to find out that you are actually an educated person.”

“The sad part is that you are the only one who does not realize that the high horse has stumbled and you are falling.”

“Give us your information Pope. Come on girlfriend, be brave."

 

JayB joins the fray: “Bill - don't distract them. With every post you coax out of them you're depriving them of a morsel of time, energy, or concentration that they'll need so bring about the closure of all sport climbing areas in the Northwest.”

 

Ken4ord contributes: “BTW poop….”

 

Kevbone addressing “Puma”: “Another asinine comment…..” “Well…..tough sh*t…..”

 

Dechristo chimes in: “what a dork”

 

A few more Kevbonisms: “......you need to get your head examined.”

“Wow......Pope.....that was a bitch slap if I ever saw one. Getting crushed at your own game.....wow!” “Oh man Pope......getting worked over eh?”

 

RuMR: “Dwayner and his sidekick poop are all about themselves...only themselves...and they will couch their attitude in a "more ethically pure" bullsh*t frame.”

“Come on, quit being a dick... f&ck, man, you and dwayner just make everything f&cking so black and white...get a f&ckin' life and take up a worthier cause...”

“cue raindawg with a richard simmons circle jerk poster...”

 

RichardNoggin: “YO POOP……get a life…STFU." “…too bad you cant see through your own sh*t”.

 

More from “high-on-rock”:

“The problem with Pope and Ryan is that they try to use the anonymity of the internet to be jerks without cost. No one has a problem with the views they put forth, merely with the junior high manner through which they put forth the views, and the “holier than thou” condescending tone they use. From here on out I believe I may send their identities by PM to folks upon whom they anonymously piss. Perhaps with a lack of anonymity comes accountability, and through accountability comes temperance.”

 

Yup...it's all Dwayner and Pope...gettin' the folks all hot and bothered and MAKING THEM express the poetry cited above.

 

 

 

 

 

Very nice review. Eight pages of "civil" and "educated" types like high_on_bolts making all kinds of insults and then admonishing you and me for being juvenile. Looks like they shut up for the moment....maybe they were just unaware of how nasty they were making the conversation!

 

Sorry gang, I've been working all day. Is there anybody here who really wants to know (and doesn't already know) my name? Send me a PM and I'll tell you. But please don't spread my name around in full view on this board. II'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this.

 

Regarding JayB's question: there are two aspects of sport climbing that make it considerably differnt than traditional slab climbing. First, sport climbs are always established on rappel (by definition). ANYBODY can "pioneer" such a route. Zero commitment, zero balls, zero skill, zero judgement required. Stopping to place a bolt is done on the way down by locking off the rope. There is complete safety. There is zero adventure. Often the bolts (being so easy to place) are placed way too close together. Often the climbs (being so easy to establish) are squeezed way too close together.

 

Now, after the first ascent, once a line of bolts exists (on a sport climb or on a traditional slab climb), is there a difference? Generally yes (but not always). Because the bolts on sport climbs tend to be so close together you CAN often aid from one bolt to the next, or at the very least, you can climb completely out of control, throwing yourself at each move (or sequence of two moves) between bolts as though it were a bouldering problem. Great fun! But if you take that approach on most traditional slab climbs, you're going to get spanked. Traditional slab climbing requires you honestly to be able to handle the climb's difficulties (or deal with huge falls). So, even after the route is established, there is an extremely important difference in the two approaches.

[olyclimber]

Is there anybody here who really wants to know (and doesn't already know) my name? Send me a PM and I'll tell you. But please don't spread my name around in full view on this board. II'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this.

 

 

Very, very funny. So you're saying that you really don't want your real name associated with your own posts? You do realize you are just validating the argument anyone might make for putting your real name out there, don't you?

 

I'm actually a proponent of allowing people to continue to use "screen names" which permit relative anonymity (though the personalities do come out anyway, don't they?). But what you are saying is that you would rather not have your name associated with what you post (which should stand apart from what anyone else has to say). You're saying that you can't stand behind your own arguments, because you're embarrassed to do so. Maybe thats not what you intend to say, but read what you wrote and think about it.

If you don't actually want your name associated with this debate, then don't post. Respect yourself and don't waste your time if it is so beneath you.

 

 

 

[pope]

Is there anybody here who really wants to know (and doesn't already know) my name? Send me a PM and I'll tell you. But please don't spread my name around in full view on this board. II'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this.

 

 

 

Very, very funny. So you're saying that you really don't want your real name associated with your own posts? You do realize you are just validating the argument anyone might make for putting your real name out there, don't you?

 

I'm actually a proponent of allowing people to continue to use "screen names" which permit relative anonymity (though the personalities do come out anyway, don't they?). But what you are saying is that you would rather not have your name associated with what you post (which should stand apart from what anyone else has to say). You're saying that you can't stand behind your own arguments, because you're embarrassed to do so. Maybe thats not what you intend to say, but read what you wrote and think about it.

If you don't actually want your name associated with this debate, then don't post. Respect yourself and don't waste your time if it is so beneath you.

 

 

 

In case I look at this stuff at work, I don't want the connection to be obvious. I assumed many participants here already know my name. I once got some grief from the cyber police at work because I had used a tiny thumb of Frank Zappa with his finger up his nose. On closer inspection, it turned out to be his middle finger. The folks monitoring my activity believed it was a photo of me flipping off the camera in my college days. Joke. Anyway, I'd be embarassed for a couple of sassy things I've said or photos I've posted, but mostly by the frequency of vulgar talk from the very participants who are scolding me for being juvenile. I never post from work and rarely look at this site, but that's the reason I use a character instead of my real name. That and to protect my family from pot-smoking maniacs on the web.

[Fairweather]

Is there anybody here who really wants to know (and doesn't already know) my name? Send me a PM and I'll tell you. But please don't spread my name around in full view on this board. II'd rather not have my real name appear in conjunction with all of the snotty, juvenile stuff (like that which Dwayner just posted), just in case somebody respectable happens to be reading this.

 

 

Very, very funny. So you're saying that you really don't want your real name associated with your own posts? You do realize you are just validating the argument anyone might make for putting your real name out there, don't you?

 

I'm actually a proponent of allowing people to continue to use "screen names" which permit relative anonymity (though the personalities do come out anyway, don't they?). But what you are saying is that you would rather not have your name associated with what you post (which should stand apart from what anyone else has to say). You're saying that you can't stand behind your own arguments, because you're embarrassed to do so. Maybe thats not what you intend to say, but read what you wrote and think about it.

If you don't actually want your name associated with this debate, then don't post. Respect yourself and don't waste your time if it is so beneath you.

 

 

I don't think this is a valid point. I'm sure Pope would be proud to see his name associated with his beliefs. So would I, mine. But, as in any large gathering, there exists an element that thinks it is appropriate to take the debate outside the forum and onto their perceived antagonist's telephone, doorstep, place of work, etc. All the while "moderators" like Matt pick-and-choose which posters are 'inflammatory' based on nothing more than his own world view. It's a very real concern, and to twist it into an accusation of academic cowardice is just plain wrong.

[Fairweather]

It is my humble opinion that Pope and Ryan thrive on feeling like they are being ostracized for their views, which is completely incorrect. Joseph professes many of the same beliefs as the pope/ryan duo, but Joseph puts forth his arguments coherently, respectfully, and without trying to belittle those who take opposing positions. [edit: to be clear, I fully respect Joseph for both his views and his respect, as I believe most others do too...

 

You're kidding, right? JosephH may be the voice of Beacon Rock, but he is hardly respectful of anyone he disagrees with, frequently resorting to name calling, race-baiting, and hardened intolerance. Try again.