Fairweather Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Running and biking in Tacoma with ya lately....you never bothered to tell me you were celebrity material! I'll watch the show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted July 14, 2007 Author Share Posted July 14, 2007 ...climbing from below and coming down to the top were really quite dangerous options... Not to be an assh*le or anything like that, but how do you and your colleagues think they entombed those mummies way up there in the cliff in the first place? I know the question is a lot like "How did the Egyptians build the Pyramids?", "How did the Anasazi build their cliff dwellings?", and "How did the Druids get the table stones on the top of Stonehenge?" and innumerable similar questions of historical significance. Just curious if you have a hypothesis as to how they might have dealt with the sh%tty rock sitmo. It's a great question, mister....and I don't have an answer for it....yet. The cliff tomb in the upcoming show didn't have a lot in it (lots of bats, though). Here's a picture of the approach to the tomb. The rock quality here makes Willis Wall look like Yosemite granite!: And here's a photo of the crack below the cliff top where the rock was too chossy-dangerous to set up a reasonably safe anchor for everyone. There's a BIG drop beneath me. In the same general area, there is another cliff tomb, one made for Hatshepsut before she became a ruler, and it contained a big, quartzite sarcophagus weighing many tons. Here's a picture of the tomb from across the wadi: The tomb entrance is in the bottom of the big slot. Note the overhanding terrain on the cliff below. The tomb had been found by robbers who were digging it out in 1916. They hung a rope down the side of the cliff. English archaeologist Howard Carter, hearing that there was some illicit action, crossed the mountains in the middle of the night, descended the rope and told the robbers to clear out, which they did. Here's part of his report: "Listening, we could hear the robbers actually at work, so I first severed their rope, thereby cutting off their means of escape, and then, making secure a good stout rope of my own, I lowered myself down the cliff. Shinning down a rope at midnight, into a nestful of industrious tomb-robbers, is a pastime which at least does lack excitement. There were eight at work, and when I reached the bottom there was an awkward moment or two. I gave them the alternative of clearing out by means of my rope, or else of staying where they were without a rope at all, and eventually they saw reason and departed. The rest of the night I spent on the spot, and, as soon as it was light enough, climbed down into the tomb again to make a thorough examination." When the sarcophagus was removed in the early 1920's, a special road had to be built to the base of the cliff and then a great effort was made to lower the super-heavy sarcophagus down the side of the cliff from where it was taken a long way through a canyon, across the desert and eventually to the Nile where it was transported to Cairo. As you can see in the picture above, they chose to enlarge the tomb's opening to remove the sarcophagus...not a choice I would have made, but they felt it necessary just to get the thing out! I spent some time in this tomb (as seen in "The Face of Tutankhamun"), climbing a fissure on the cliff top to a sloping ledge where there were some good cracks for rappel anchors. I'm pretty convinced that the ancient Egyptians didn't lower the stone sarcophagus from the top....it would involve carrying it over some really ridiculous terrain. So, the other option is to bring it up from below...but...the rappel out of the tomb's mouth to the ground is free-hanging. Just getting the thing in there to the base would have been tough and raising it up there would have required some serious engineering creativity! Scaffolding??? I think a special study of these kinds of tombs would be worthwhile...looking for clues as to how they moved these really heavy objects around on difficult terrain and up or down the sides of cliffs. And some of these tombs (such as the ones described above) are way out in the middle of nowhere, in rough desert wilderness mountains, built under natural waterfalls, so as to thwart their robbery! Just one of many big mysteries out there.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirp Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 No cable TV I hope there is some other way I could scope this as it sounds wonderful! Don you taping it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Wow, that's really interesting, I had no idea! Funny, I have been looking at commercials for the show all week. Congratulations! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 Wow, that's really interesting, I had no idea! I agree with Lance. You are really blessed to have such interesting and important work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 I visited another tomb on a higher cliff, in the same vicinity (southern wadis of the Theban Mountains) a few years ago for the BBC/A&E. In that case, I was able to put together a really nice set-up and was responsible not only for my own on-screen action, but safely supervised the BBC film crew who had never done much climbing. They loved it! The show is called "The Face of Tutankhamun"...and the cliff bits are in Episode 1 called "The Great Adventure". It's out on DVD (BBC Video)...I just recently bought a copy of it at some store in the Sea-Tac food/shopping area inside the concourses. Actually, the whole 4 or 5 part program was really well made. Hey kids, if you still have a VCR, the video series referenced above is available trough both the Pierce and King County library systems. Narrated by Sir Christopher Frayling, the series is informative and entertaining, not the kind of documentary that will induce sleep. And you get to see Dwayner in action in the Valley of the Kings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knewman44 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 hey does anyone know if they ever found the 2 missing climbers from mount hood? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knewman44 Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 do you happen to know about the missing mount hood climbers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spotly Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 hey does anyone know if they ever found the 2 missing climbers from mount hood? No do you happen to know about the missing mount hood climbers? yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 (edited) Edited July 14, 2007 by XXX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXX Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 I watched the show, that was pretty coool man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 OMFG! It's amazing! I missed the show and I'm still alive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 I watched the show. as much of it as i could. It was really interesting. I would love to go to Egypt some day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 you can get Egypted buying trinkets right here on the innerwebs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Thousands, hundreds of thousands of people devote their entire lives to build shrines in which to bury their kings and important citizens, then along come some “scientists” who remove them and place them on a shelf in a museum so that they can say “I have this in my collection!” When does grave robbing become “archeology?” Priests spent their lives trying to hide these bodies to keep them from being disturbed, then here come the archeologists. Is nothing sacred? Yet placing a bolt on a remote mountain is an ethical catastrophe to Raindog. Confuses my little mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Were there any Mickeys in the tomb? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 I watched it last night. Great show! My favorite quote: "I am not going to risk my life for a television show." -- Raindawg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancegranite Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 Well done, congratulations on hooking it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted July 16, 2007 Author Share Posted July 16, 2007 Thousands, hundreds of thousands of people devote their entire lives to build shrines in which to bury their kings and important citizens, then along come some “scientists” who remove them and place them on a shelf in a museum so that they can say “I have this in my collection!” When does grave robbing become “archeology?” Priests spent their lives trying to hide these bodies to keep them from being disturbed, then here come the archeologists. Is nothing sacred? Yet placing a bolt on a remote mountain is an ethical catastrophe to Raindog. Confuses my little mind. This really isn't the place to discuss archaeological ethics but I'll give you just a couple of insights. The whole business about messing with dead people is a big deal in archaeology. When I teach courses on the subject, it is one of the questions we deal with: "Are archaeologists just grave-robbers with a more sophisticated philosophy?" I offer various perspectives on the subject from: "have some respect for the people who buried them" to "who cares....they're dead!" and other viewpoints in-between. For those who have no problem with disturbing burials, I ask them if it's O.K. to dig up there grandmother because I might find her somehow interesting. Some change their minds, some don't care. It's a huge issue among Native Americans and federal law requires that all museums inventory their collections of human remains and repatriate them to tribes at their request. In Egypt, speaking for my own work, the tombs I've excavated in the Valley of the Kings were all horribly robbed and the mummies stripped and ravaged (for precious objects) by robbers in ancient times. My preference has always been to keep the mummies in the tombs in which they were found rather than shipping them off to a museum for storage or public display. If you happened to see the show last night, then you saw that the mummy now identified as Hatshepsut was resting quietly in a wooden coffin I had built for her, in her closed tomb, until she was removed by the Egyptian authorities for examination. I think now she's currently on public display in Cairo. In another tomb nearby, we also built a special box to hold the remains we found there of two torn apart mummies and they are still there. When I'm done excavating and documenting a tomb, it's always in a MUCH better condition than which it was found and the bodies are left in a dignified state rather than how I found them: thrown around on the floor in the debris of their anciently destroyed burials. The many mummies stored or on display in Cairo are the remains of the ancestors of the living Egyptian people and the government authorities set the policy. Nobody seems to really mind that much over there although several years ago, there was some talk of building a national mausoleum to intern all of the ancient royal mummies. As far as bolts are concerned....THESE ARE TOTALLY UNRELATED ISSUES...not even apples and oranges. I'm not even willing to debate this stuff with you because: a) this is an inappropriate venue, b) I won't see my professional field relegated to "spray" or drug down into the usual cesspool. The nature of your comments above suggests it's already heading that way: ("Yet placing a bolt on a remote mountain is an ethical catastrophe to Raindog. Confuses my little mind.") I hope you found a few interesting points in the above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 I think the primary difference is that on one you have a well thought out argument based upon facts, experience, and reason; whereas on the other you have mere senseless rantings: probably why you are willing to address one and not compare the other. They seem to both raise a couple identical questions. When does one have the right to make the decision to tamper with what they find in nature, and when should one leave it the way they find it. How is a dry waterfall in a remote mountain more sacred than tombs that were built with the blood of many? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 What's good for the goose is good for the gander, Dawg. I agree that this may not be the best thread for discussing bolt ethics, but you insert that argument into many threads where that is not the topic either. Maybe that is part of his point. Anyway, congrats on the film, and I'm sorry I missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
high_on_rock Posted July 16, 2007 Share Posted July 16, 2007 And let me also say Congrats on the film. It is always nice for someone to get recognized for hard work. My daughter and I enjoyed the many hours of the ancient history presented last night. Great eduction. I personally have no problem with what you do for a living, merely that it conflicts with all of the ranting that you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raindawg Posted July 16, 2007 Author Share Posted July 16, 2007 I think the primary difference is that on one you have a well thought out argument based upon facts, experience, and reason; whereas on the other you have mere senseless rantings: probably why you are willing to address one and not compare the other. No dude...my opinions in both realms are "well thought out arguments based upon facts, experience, and reason". My experience in both archaeology and climbing have spanned decades. I have worked professionally and taught in both fields. You might not appreciate my perspectives, but you aren't required to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pope Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 What's good for the goose is good for the gander, Dawg. That's something an ole gramma would say and it doesn't mean a dang thing. Are you an old gramma? I agree that this may not be the best thread for discussing bolt ethics, but you insert that argument into many threads where that is not the topic either. Maybe that is part of his point. He's got no point. Raindawg's sharing something special so enjoy it. Ferrata-Boy says: "hey you, that's right, you with the crappy attitude....SIT DOWN!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 I think the primary difference is that on one you have a well thought out argument based upon facts, experience, and reason; whereas on the other you have mere senseless rantings: probably why you are willing to address one and not compare the other. They seem to both raise a couple identical questions. When does one have the right to make the decision to tamper with what they find in nature, and when should one leave it the way they find it. How is a dry waterfall in a remote mountain more sacred than tombs that were built with the blood of many? I find Raindawgs ethics to be consistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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