Leavenworth Trad Ethics

[billcoe]

Dcramer:

 

Can you help me out? Link

 

Thanks

 

Bill

 

(trying to avoid thread drift)

Edited June 15, 2007 by billcoe

[archenemy]

the 5.7 over the tunnel.

 

Ultra Brutal.

 

 

[Alex]

I explicitly don't want to see it be regulated, BUT, over the past 25 years the only places I've seen bolting moderated or constrained in any successful way is on private land and under the tight control of land managers.

 

Really? I've seen tons of places protected purely by local ethics that are applied consistently. The Gunks (albeit managed by Mohonk Preserve, but thats not the reason there are no bolts), Adirondacks crags, many trad areas back East like Seneca. And I've seen very responsible bolting at mixed areas like the New. This was because local climber's bought into the current standards of the area.

 

Even here in Washington, Static Point comes to mind instantly as an example of a place that has managed to keep it "very traditional" despite the goings on at other nearby areas.

[Weekend_Climberz]

I heard from somebody that a u-joint puller is a good chopping tool. I think it was a little birdy that told me that.

[Weekend_Climberz]

the 5.7 over the tunnel.

 

Ultra Brutal.

 

 

Speaking of bolts. We should remove that manky tunnel door and the bolts holding together the rock above it. Who knows, all the rock fall could make some nice routes eventually

[fenderfour]

the 5.7 over the tunnel.

 

Ultra Brutal.

 

 

I am a hard bitch.

[fenderfour]

the 5.7 over the tunnel.

 

Ultra Brutal.

 

 

Speaking of bolts. We should remove that manky tunnel door and the bolts holding together the rock above it. Who knows, all the rock fall could make some nice routes eventually

 

Somebody was in there yesterday. I doubt they would appreciate the chopping of their tunnel.

[counterfeitfake]

Grid-doorers deserve to be buried within their projects!!!

[archenemy]

the 5.7 over the tunnel.

 

Ultra Brutal.

 

 

Speaking of bolts. We should remove that manky tunnel door and the bolts holding together the rock above it. Who knows, all the rock fall could make some nice routes eventually

You mean that first big bolt thingy is off route?

[Weekend_Climberz]

Archy, it's only in when there's pink tape on it. Geez, you outdoor climbers don't know anything.

[JosephH]

Lots of folks thought Jardine was cheating when he introduced Yosemite to Friends.

 

A lot of that perception was because he was simultaneously dogging on them and a big proponent of dogging which flew in the face of most folks ethics in the Valley.

[DCramer]

Alright here's the scoop:

 

Blake has inmportant plans this weekend but is psyched to go check it out.

 

Fender:

 

As mentioned in my earlier post I am available on Saturday only. Since Blake cannot go I would rather reschedule so both climbs can be knocked off in one day. Any thoughts? When I made the challenge I had no idea what SS was like. I have since heard that there is a scruffy gully to the left. The route doesn't follow it but it is close. (again I haven't seen it) Since this section is only near the bottom three bolts and there are several more up higher I wonder if in order to save time you would agree to consider only the bolts above the first 2 or 3. You did say that no bolts were required over the entire route. This way we can conduct this experiment quickly and I can get on with the day.

[mattp]

If somebody wants to head over there for the day tomorrow I might be game. Send a P.M.

[matt_warfield]

Lots of folks thought Jardine was cheating when he introduced Yosemite to Friends.

 

A lot of that perception was because he was simultaneously dogging on them and a big proponent of dogging which flew in the face of most folks ethics in the Valley.

 

Sounds like a topic for another thread of insane length.....

 

 

[JosephH]

I explicitly don't want to see it be regulated, BUT, over the past 25 years the only places I've seen bolting moderated or constrained in any successful way is on private land and under the tight control of land managers.

...The Gunks (albeit managed by Mohonk Preserve, but thats not the reason there are no bolts)

After the bolt wars in the Gunks the Mohonk Preserve is very much the reason there is no bolting.

 

Adirondacks crags

The Daks protect themselves from sport climbing by simply being the Daks.

 

...many trad areas back East like Seneca.

I'd say more like the Mid and SE Atlantic region guards it's own and well, because you'll get your ass whipped if you show up drilling a Seneca and Looking Glass and other areas.

 

In general those areas which are protected by locals in the East and elsewhere it's because of very longstanding traditions that don't exist in most places in the Midwest and even most places in the West outside of the classic meccas. Eldo is a good example of bolt wars even in one of those meccas and tight regulated control is what now keeps bolts in check.

 

[fenderfour]

Alright here's the scoop:

 

Blake has inmportant plans this weekend but is psyched to go check it out.

 

Fender:

 

As mentioned in my earlier post I am available on Saturday only. Since Blake cannot go I would rather reschedule so both climbs can be knocked off in one day. Any thoughts? When I made the challenge I had no idea what SS was like. I have since heard that there is a scruffy gully to the left. The route doesn't follow it but it is close. (again I haven't seen it) Since this section is only near the bottom three bolts and there are several more up higher I wonder if in order to save time you would agree to consider only the bolts above the first 2 or 3. You did say that no bolts were required over the entire route. This way we can conduct this experiment quickly and I can get on with the day.

 

It's not a scruffy gulley. It's a wide handcrack filled with dirt and grass. Why don't you go up there this weekend and look at it. There is plenty of other fun stuff to climb while you are looking around.

 

On a personal note - You really sound like a dick in this message. Two people are willing to take up your somewhat ridiculous challenge defending at least one climb you know nothing about. Try to be a little more cordial when the cooperation you didn't expect materializes. With your attitude, I can't say I'm terribly excited about all of this.

 

FYI - It will take a while to clear out that crack. I would expect more than an hour or two. That tree will need a saw...

 

Low on the route:

 

The grass is the crack

 

 

Higher on the route:

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2007 by fenderfour

[counterfeitfake]

I also think the idea that you're going to say "falling" and the climber is just gonna whip off is pretty dumb. To say a route goes on gear doesn't mean that you can fall at any time with no ill consequences. Even applying that to a sport route isn't very reasonable.

[mattp]

I'm not really looking to insert myself into this "argument" such as it is so much as I'd just like to get out for some easy climbing. What do you say Mr. Four? Got plans?

[fenderfour]

Pulled your name out

[Blake]

I have my graduation ceremony from WWU saturday, so i can't do it.

 

my memory is that on PoP, it is either the last two or the last 3 bolts which were not near cracks. Basically you can reach up and clip a bolt just before pulling the crux moves,which you'd fall on if you blew the 5.11+ crux. I actually fell on this bolt before getting the moves later. If the bolt had not been there, I likely would have fallen ~8-10 feet, from where my partner and i both identificed a good finger crack that is directly on route. However, since i didn't do that, I can't say for SURE, but i can say with 99% sureness.

 

p1 of Jap gardens is another example of an .11+ climb where you pull the crux with pro ~at your feet.

 

Anyways, on PoP i'd say that leaving in that "crux" bolt and the one or two above it on the blank easy slab are what (in my perfect world)should be done, but i think the route would be safe even without the crux bolt, though more heady.

 

 

On Javelin, my partner and i eyed the route and both thought that the first bolt, to protect your boulder problem onto the rock itself was handy. That is because if you fell, you'd slide/tumble down the hill... all other bolts on the climb were near cracks, although the last bolt is next to a 4" THIN flake crack, so that bolt might need to stay to protect the flake.

 

I recall only the (~1?) post crux slabby bolt on Gun Rack being not near a crack. There are good cracks at both the roofs, and below.

 

On another climb at the Special Spot, to the left of the Javelin, there is a mix of crack climbing below, and slab climbing hugher up. Just below an intermediate anchor (which we needed to rap off with a 60m rope) there was a bolt about 12" from a splitter crack, and the whole thing was only about 5 feet of easy climbing from the chains...

 

 

maybe if anyone else checks out these 4 climbs this weekend then can see if they agree with the assessments of myself and my partner.

 

 

Those are my recollections and thoughts, and i did speak with my partner about all that stuff at the time.

 

I'm just confused why the cracks on Drop Out (just left of red tide) and Decathlon were NOT bolted, yet crack sections on nearby routes were.

 

-Blake

Edited June 15, 2007 by Blake

[RuMR]

I explicitly don't want to see it be regulated, BUT, over the past 25 years the only places I've seen bolting moderated or constrained in any successful way is on private land and under the tight control of land managers.

 

Really? I've seen tons of places protected purely by local ethics that are applied consistently. The Gunks (albeit managed by Mohonk Preserve, but thats not the reason there are no bolts), Adirondacks crags, many trad areas back East like Seneca. And I've seen very responsible bolting at mixed areas like the New. This was because local climber's bought into the current standards of the area.

 

Even here in Washington, Static Point comes to mind instantly as an example of a place that has managed to keep it "very traditional" despite the goings on at other nearby areas.

seneca has rap bolted sport routes...

[RuMR]

Alright here's the scoop:

 

Blake has inmportant plans this weekend but is psyched to go check it out.

 

Fender:

 

As mentioned in my earlier post I am available on Saturday only. Since Blake cannot go I would rather reschedule so both climbs can be knocked off in one day. Any thoughts? When I made the challenge I had no idea what SS was like. I have since heard that there is a scruffy gully to the left. The route doesn't follow it but it is close. (again I haven't seen it) Since this section is only near the bottom three bolts and there are several more up higher I wonder if in order to save time you would agree to consider only the bolts above the first 2 or 3. You did say that no bolts were required over the entire route. This way we can conduct this experiment quickly and I can get on with the day.

 

It's not a scruffy gulley. It's a wide handcrack filled with dirt and grass. Why don't you go up there this weekend and look at it. There is plenty of other fun stuff to climb while you are looking around.

 

On a personal note - You really sound like a dick in this message. Two people are willing to take up your somewhat ridiculous challenge defending at least one climb you know nothing about. Try to be a little more cordial when the cooperation you didn't expect materializes. With your attitude, I can't say I'm terribly excited about all of this.

 

FYI - It will take a while to clear out that crack. I would expect more than an hour or two. That tree will need a saw...

 

Low on the route:

 

The grass is the crack

 

 

Higher on the route:

 

 

so let me get this straight...you are gonna remove bolts to reduce impact by cleaning a vegetated crack and cutting a tree? Fuck, that's an impact right there, and i'll bet the tree considers itself getting sawn quite a bit more of an "impact" than the rock right next to it getting a hole...dontcha think?

 

This is about the stupidest thing i've heard all week...you guys are morons...the real answer is to probably remove the route altogether...

[RuMR]

I have my graduation ceremony from WWU saturday, so i can't do it.

 

my memory is that on PoP, it is either the last two or the last 3 bolts which were not near cracks. Basically you can reach up and clip a bolt just before pulling the crux moves,which you'd fall on if you blew the 5.11+ crux. I actually fell on this bolt before getting the moves later. If the bolt had not been there, I likely would have fallen ~8-10 feet, from where my partner and i both identificed a good finger crack that is directly on route. However, since i didn't do that, I can't say for SURE, but i can say with 99% sureness.

 

p1 of Jap gardens is another example of an .11+ climb where you pull the crux with pro ~at your feet.

Anyways, on PoP i'd say that leaving in that "crux" bolt and the one or two above it on the blank easy slab are what (in my perfect world)should be done, but i think the route would be safe even without the crux bolt, though more heady.

 

 

On Javelin, my partner and i eyed the route and both thought that the first bolt, to protect your boulder problem onto the rock itself was handy. That is because if you fell, you'd slide/tumble down the hill... all other bolts on the climb were near cracks, although the last bolt is next to a 4" THIN flake crack, so that bolt might need to stay to protect the flake.

 

I recall only the (~1?) post crux slabby bolt on Gun Rack being not near a crack. There are good cracks at both the roofs, and below.

 

On another climb at the Special Spot, to the left of the Javelin, there is a mix of crack climbing below, and slab climbing hugher up. Just below an intermediate anchor (which we needed to rap off with a 60m rope) there was a bolt about 12" from a splitter crack, and the whole thing was only about 5 feet of easy climbing from the chains...

 

 

maybe if anyone else checks out these 4 climbs this weekend then can see if they agree with the assessments of myself and my partner.

 

 

Those are my recollections and thoughts, and i did speak with my partner about all that stuff at the time.

 

I'm just confused why the cracks on Drop Out (just left of red tide) and Decathlon were NOT bolted, yet crack sections on nearby routes were.

 

-Blake

 

really, i don't remember this on jap...seems to me that there is protection anywhere and everywhere you choose to place it...it is a crack afterall...

 

apples and oranges...

[fenderfour]

I dont' think the intent is to reduce impact on the living things, but the rock itself.

 

I really don't give two shits. I pointed out a climb that had bolts by a crack and DCramer called me out.

 

Will a clean crack improve the route? No. Who wants to climb wide hands on a slab like that?

 

Maybe we can clear out small areas so that gear can be plugged in while leaving most of the verge in tact.

[mattp]

Allright, well here I'll insert myself. You (Rumr) would call for the route to be removed because (presumably) bolts were placed near a crack - but you wouldn't accept cleaning the crack to take gear?

 

I don't clearly remember the climb but I thought it was fun and I don't remember thinking those cracks off to the left were part of the route. The photo looks like you might do as Fender is suggesting and clean the crack out for pro only, but that is certainly a novel approach to a climb! Now we WOULD be approaching the rules of a gym climb where you say "only use the holds marked with the blue tape!"

 

We tie ourselves in some funny knots some times.