Leavenworth Trad Ethics

[RuMR]

I dont' think the intent is to reduce impact on the living things, but the rock itself.

 

I really don't give two shits. I pointed out a climb that had bolts by a crack and DCramer called me out.

 

Will a clean crack improve the route? No. Who wants to climb wide hands on a slab like that?

 

Maybe we can clear out small areas so that gear can be plugged in while leaving most of the verge in tact.

maybe we agree this is a stupid argument instead...

 

my real point, whether you give two or three shits, i don't care, is that rockclimbing is an impact in and of itself...

 

everybody points to the gunks and i just about fucking laugh...yeah, no fixed protection, so what you get is a big fuckin' rat's nest of rp's, shit and webbing all "fixed" into the rock...there you go, much less of an impact than a single orange tan painted camo-bolt...

 

let's face it, we are humans, and impacting is our business and we should try to minimize it as much as possible, but to think you are "nature" boy and shit and aren't doing anything is nothing short of ludicrous...

 

oh, and joseph's a double standard pussy who's bowing down to his particular climbing "gods" cuz he can't conceive of himself climbing with his style at their level...so, he can't make the argument about impacts either...his is nothing short of a chestbeating session in all honesty. THe laugher is that if we extrapolate his argument into assuming that everyone is climbing at a certain grade is free to do what they want, and then the standard raises to that "specified" level we will have exactly what is going on today...

Edited June 15, 2007 by RuMR

[RuMR]

Allright, well here I'll insert myself. You (Rumr) would call for the route to be removed because (presumably) bolts were placed near a crack - but you wouldn't accept cleaning the crack to take gear? confused:

no...my point was hyperbolic...ie, if we take everyone's argument that we are trying to reduce impacts, then its probably best to just not go climbing...understand??

[mattp]

God dammit, Rumr. Stupid arguments are what it is all about but you're right: we DO come off as a bunch of clowns.

[RuMR]

this thread is ultrabrutal...

[MarkMcJizzy]

 

Even here in Washington, Static Point comes to mind instantly as an example of a place that has managed to keep it "very traditional" despite the goings on at other nearby areas.

 

That's a laughable bunch of crap. Static was one of the very first crags in North America to have seen the extensive use of a roto-hammer.

 

Not very traditional

 

[RuMR]

:lmao:

alex missed it on seneca too...

[DCramer]

Cordial? Sorry if my writing (squeezed in here at work) was a bit terse. It's a bit stressed here today. I was just trying to be efficient with time. Not sure how I was a dick to Blake: He does have important plans this weekend and seems psyched to try it out. You basically called someone out and I asked you to prove it. Pretty simply. Not ridiculous.

 

Layout of the route: I asked for your thoughts on the matter. I cannot see the pictures right now so I will have to look at it later. Although I do wonder how big the tree is!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JosephH]

oh, and joseph's a double standard pussy who's bowing down to his particular climbing "gods" cuz he can't conceive of himself climbing with his style at their level...so, he can't make the argument about impacts either...his is nothing short of a chestbeating session in all honesty. THe laugher is that if we extrapolate his argument into assuming that everyone is climbing at a certain grade is free to do what they want, and then the standard raises to that "specified" level we will have exactly what is going on today...

 

Hard to imagine from this interpretation that you read what I wrote at all. I was very explicit my comments and viewpoint have nothing whatsoever to do with anyone climbing at a particular level or that any one climbing at a particular level has carte blanche to do anything and everything.

 

My point and belief is I feel no method, technique or means should escape unexamined from the bleeding edge where evolution is happening AND that it should be two seperate decisions whether a means is acceptable at the bleeding edge and also is viable to be propogated all the way down to every 5.6 in the land. That, as opposed to normal situation where the minute Frank Hardbody does it everybody with is doing it on every grade. In that scenario it is in no way a double standard - it's appropriate and measured means.

 

Your approach is one where anything goes everywhere on everything the minute it is revealed - it's more communist than anything else with no merit test of any kind. That's exactly why we have circumstances which are the subject of this thread. Oh, and I bow down to no one - I just am not quick to judge at the bleeding edge nor do I leap to criticize difficult calls occuring at that edge simply because I wouldn't have made the same one. I give no one a pass regardless of who they are.

[JosephH]

Allright, well here I'll insert myself. You (Rumr) would call for the route to be removed because (presumably) bolts were placed near a crack - but you wouldn't accept cleaning the crack to take gear? confused:

no...my point was hyperbolic...ie, if we take everyone's argument that we are trying to reduce impacts, then its probably best to just not go climbing...understand??

 

That's your justification for bolting cracks?

[DCramer]

Alex is wrong for reasons other than Mark's regarding Static as well.

 

As far as "agressive" cleaning I suggested to Fender we not do that but got called a Dick. I'll look at his pictures later.

[billcoe]

Dcramer. I'd love to get on it with ya. No clipping, just scrape, plug and go.

 

BUT (always with the butts!) some caveats.

 

I'm not chopping nothing. Nothing. Theres plenty of great and not so great climbers who love that area and are around 24/7 to make that call and they can have that arguement with out me. Or you. I love granite slabs. Love em. Big.

 

Next) If I pee on myself in fear- 150" up with a single #2 RP in, I will clip the bolts. With screamers. Do not place any money against that happening. I have a serious self-preservation thing in place. I just do.

 

About me, I'm slow, old, overweight, balding and weak. I have an offsetting quality in that I will NOT fail you if you need a great belay or a solid anchor. I am truly Horton in "Horton Hatches the Who" and am in for a penny in for a pound.

 

I cannot bang it out this Sat but can line up for another day. My kids have recently grown up (or are so damn close...ahhhh) and I haven't been to Leavenworth for a long while. Leavenworth is THE SCHIZZEL. Really, I'm not kidding.

 

I think - based on what we both say, we are close to agreeing - and I'd love to do a few laps with ya. If this all sounds strange, well, it's Friday and I've taken care of all my cares in the world and have been drinking wine for 3 hours now......

 

But it's the honest to G truth. You can bring yer gardening tools:-)

 

Bill

 

 

[billcoe]

Oh, and if we can get up it, I want to spend at least 2-3 times longer making it better for all who follow, which will mean brooming and cleaning as we rap.

[mattp]

This whole thing is getting nutty. I'm outta here.

[RuMR]

Allright, well here I'll insert myself. You (Rumr) would call for the route to be removed because (presumably) bolts were placed near a crack - but you wouldn't accept cleaning the crack to take gear? confused:

no...my point was hyperbolic...ie, if we take everyone's argument that we are trying to reduce impacts, then its probably best to just not go climbing...understand??

 

That's your justification for bolting cracks?

where did i say bolt cracks???

[JosephH]

About me, I'm slow, old, overweight, balding and weak.

 

And a world class sandbagger to boot...

[RuMR]

oh, and joseph's a double standard pussy who's bowing down to his particular climbing "gods" cuz he can't conceive of himself climbing with his style at their level...so, he can't make the argument about impacts either...his is nothing short of a chestbeating session in all honesty. THe laugher is that if we extrapolate his argument into assuming that everyone is climbing at a certain grade is free to do what they want, and then the standard raises to that "specified" level we will have exactly what is going on today...

 

Hard to imagine from this interpretation that you read what I wrote at all. I was very explicit my comments and viewpoint have nothing whatsoever to do with anyone climbing at a particular level or that any one climbing at a particular level has carte blanche to do anything and everything.

 

My point and belief is I feel no method, technique or means should escape unexamined from the bleeding edge where evolution is happening AND that it should be two seperate decisions whether a means is acceptable at the bleeding edge and also is viable to be propogated all the way down to every 5.6 in the land. That, as opposed to normal situation where the minute Frank Hardbody does it everybody with is doing it on every grade. In that scenario it is in no way a double standard - it's appropriate and measured means.

 

Your approach is one where anything goes everywhere on everything the minute it is revealed - it's more communist than anything else with no merit test of any kind. That's exactly why we have circumstances which are the subject of this thread. Oh, and I bow down to no one - I just am not quick to judge at the bleeding edge nor do I leap to criticize difficult calls occuring at that edge simply because I wouldn't have made the same one. I give no one a pass regardless of who they are.

i don't understand how you can say that party A establishing Line 1 is allowed to rap bolt, yet party B establishing Line 2 can not. it doesn't make any sense...bleeding edge... Caldwell just about onsight flashed ElCorazon the other day...falling once...this is my point...that particular free route was cutting edge when it was established, yet now at that "evolving" "bleeding" edge, someone almost onsights it ground up...

Edited June 16, 2007 by RuMR

[JosephH]

That's your justification for bolting cracks?

where did i say bolt cracks???

My bad, missed your last line after your hyperbole thinking it was just more of the same - now I can see you turned the corner on it.

 

One note - you can't 'remove a route' on a line with a crack system - you can remove the bolts, but the route never went anywhere.

[octavius]

That tree will need a saw...

 

Higher on the route:

 

 

I don't think you should cut that tree. It looks like something that somebody might want to rappel off of...

 

Just say'in.

 

 

[JosephH]

i don't understand how you can say that party A establishing Line 1 is allowed to rap bolt, yet party B establishing Line 2 can not. it doesn't make any sense...bleeding edge... Caldwell just about onsight flashed ElCorazon the other day...falling once...this is my point...that particular free route was cutting edge when it was established, yet now at that "evolving" "bleeding" edge, someone almost onsights it ground up...

 

Again, it isn't about either party, to me it would have been the grade. I would have been much happier if sport climbing had stayed to its genesis and remained a .12 and up practice and used judiciously at that. Then it would served pushing limits, as opposed to simply providing access. As far as I recall, no lead bolts were used to put El Corazon together only anchor bolts, that is exactly what I mean by appropriate and measured application.

[DCramer]

Perils would be pretty bold without any bolts..if I remember correctly.

 

As would Straight Street...if I remember correctly.

 

No. there is a splitter crack full of dirt and bushes up the middle of the lower slab. There are a couple of places cleared for holds. Up higher the crack in the dihedral peters out for about 10 feet, then comes back at fingers.

 

I really don't give two shits. I pointed out a climb that had bolts by a crack and DCramer called me out.

 

I think I "called you out" with regard to the route not being scary w/o bolts. Thus my not wanting to clean off the bottom.

 

Bill -

 

I am sure I am fatter than you and my balding is catching up. Plus I am still rehabing from biceps reattachment so I am sure I am slower and weaker!

 

I'd go climbing with you sometime my current frequency of getting out is once per month!

 

The only reason I entered the fray is people seemed to be jumping all over the guys who put these routes up and some of shit being said seemed not so plausible. I have entered the fray here many times and argued with people about routes I put up. Been blamed for stuff I havent done. It really doesn't mean that much to me. In this thread specific people are being slammed. Consequently, I think people posting here ought to be willing to back up what they say espescially when they go out of their way to say it. If they are right more power to them. If not.....

 

 

Anyway if you put up enough routes people can find examples of pretty much every screw up possible.

 

 

[rob]

That tree will need a saw...

 

Higher on the route:

 

 

I don't think you should cut that tree. It looks like something that somebody might want to rappel off of...

 

Just say'in.

 

 

I think they should cut it just to prevent people from rapping off it.

Edited June 16, 2007 by robmcdan

[billcoe]

I'd go climbing with you sometime my current frequency of getting out is once per month!

 

Ahhh, you obviously need to get out more:-)

 

The only reason I entered the fray is people seemed to be jumping all over the guys who put these routes up and some of shit being said seemed not so plausible. I have entered the fray here many times and argued with people about routes I put up. Been blamed for stuff I havent done. It really doesn't mean that much to me. In this thread specific people are being slammed. Consequently, I think people posting here ought to be willing to back up what they say espescially when they go out of their way to say it. If they are right more power to them. If not.....

 

 

Anyway if you put up enough routes people can find examples of pretty much every screw up possible.

 

 

Totally concur and agree! I know all about it, esp. is someone posts a pic like this, wherein a gorgeous lookin crack has bolts next to it. Like this:

But I've never seen this route. Or been on it. And that pic looks awesome! Like I said earlier, I did see the Croft comments about that pic of him next to a bolted "crack" where he said that crack could not be protected. I bet it couldn't be either.

 

Anyway, the story is that I once retro-bolted a trad FA which I had done 20 years earlier, not knowing the route had ever been done, by me or anyone.

 

-And-

 

I'm not so damn positive of any position I have that I feel the need to cram it down everyones throat. I do not know these routes. I'm confused about most of this shit and all I really know is that good friends, good weather, good rock: make for a deeply spirtiual experince, where my memory carries it for a while, and thats worth something. I don't want to lay a big judgmental thing down for others, even though I do it anyway at times.

 

Anyhoooo, I did that one ground up, clean, small wires and some pins. As far as I can ascertain, there was never, ever a 2nd ascent for the next 20 years, and every climber in what is a popular area would walk right underneath and past this route to climb something else.

 

Oh, it could have been done by someone. Yet it remained an X rated route. A buddy and I spied it, I had forgotten about my bold lead as a youth, and bolted it like 20 years later. It is such a freakin sweet route now. Perhaps because I had done the FA, it has not been chopped.

 

I was telling an old friend about my "NEW" line, and he remembered belaying me on it soooooo long ago. He described every move and yell, and I started to remember doing that near death train wreck.

 

People do climb it. All the time. No one has died on it, mostly beceuase it is now a G rated route. I once was conned into belaying a youth on it who wanted to repeat it all trad, without clipping the bolts. I mad e the mistake of belaying this kid. He was strong. Had a great lead head for classic climbing. Yet I started to beg him to clip the bolts after he had passed the first 3 or 4. He did clip one finally. This has an importance to me in direct contrast to the classic Royal Robbins clean climbing arguements. I have not been able to balance it all out, as I agree with Robbins too.

 

I know that I still love granite slabs. And off hands cracks too:-) Especially off-hands on slabs.

 

My son turns 17 tomorrow. I cannot go for the day and miss my sons birthday. (see Horton comment above)

 

-but-

 

We should climb.

 

PS, why cut the tree(bush) if it's not in your way and might be a great handhold or an emergency rap station?

[Weekend_Climberz]

I have my graduation ceremony from WWU saturday, so i can't do it.

 

Congats

[Drederek]

I've climbed Straight street perhaps 4-5 times in the last 10 years. Other than a few holds near the bottom the first pitch is a slab, reminiscent of the lower angled climbs on the apron at Squamish. As such its always seemed ok to me to be clipping bolts on the way up. After clipping a few bolts on p2 it turns into a more disorganized traversing crack system with gear placements up to the layback roof finish. Its a great climb that people have been climbing as it is since 2001. I prefer to clip every other bolt and lead it all in one long pitch. Not a lot of 190' pitches at Leav, please don't ruin this one. If you want a total gear route there is a very good one 15' to left, Kitty corner. There is room for all kinds of climbs here.

Perils of Pauline just doesn't seem worth all the hullabaloo (sp?) to me. Pretty much a one move wonder and not that hard if you're good on slopers. Didn't get the onsight but probably would have a few (10) years ago when I climbed harder stuff.

Gun Rack feels a lot like a gym climb, steep and fun with large holds and a roof to pull. When you hike up the hill on the great trail realize that a high percentage of those beating the trail into the hillside did this climb.

Have only done Javelin once that I recall, at the end of a hot day. I was happy to get a strenuous climb so easily.

I would like to thank those who put up these routes (and all the other routes I've climbed in the last 30 years), they are not among the boldest but I had a great time climbing them.

[Wakaranai]

I know its in a different league quality wise, but thank you to those who sport bolted climbs like No Name Road, and Burning Down The Couch. If the extra bolts were not there, wimps like me could never climb these wonderful routes in the same style that the FA's did. Its also good to know that many Tuolumne Meadow classics will never change and I will always be a 5.9 climber (at best) when I visit there. As for Leavenworth, I think its pretty cool how mixed up the Ethics are all in one climbing area. Plenty of scary stuff, and plenty of safe stuff. Cool.