Barrabes to GWN

[epb]

way to be on top of things JayB. I'm looking forward to hearing what they have to say in response...if they give you one.

By the way...what's EMC?

[JayB]

Hey EPB,

Thanks - we'll see what happens. Hopefully they'll reply.

Did I say EMC? I meant to write MEC, or Mountain (or Mountaineering or something like that) Equipment Co-op, a sort Candadian Paleo-REI that I was pysched to order from when I heard about the deals, only to find out that they could no longer ship the merchandise I was looking for to us honorary hosers here in the US for reasons I alluded to in the letter !

[Maurice]

JayB-Maybe you have seen this already, but if not check it out.

http://www.cascadeclimber.com/u_s__prices.htm

web page

[JayB]

Hey - thanks for the link. Very well put by Loren. Hopefully my letter will reinforce the point. I think that wether the industry likes it or not, the genie is out of the bottle here and it's time for them to modify their business model accordingly.

[rat]

i found a pair of skis at telemark-pyrenees that cost about $275 including 2.6% duty (if i get charged) and about $45 shipping. these skis retail for about $340+tax in the good ol' usa. i called pro-ski in seattle to see if they would at least match the european price. the guy i spoke with was aware of the pricing discrepancy but still wouldn't haggle AT ALL. maybe i would have had more luck if i was there in person with cold hard cash but i live about 120 miles away. anyways, for big-ticket items it might be worth doing a little internet research then trying to get a modestly lower price at a locally owned store(no one pays the sticker price for a car if they can help it). it didn't work this time but it may in the future if more people do it. one downside is that it puts pressure on the little guy but, hey, i'm a little guy too.

[rat]

i made the order with telemark-pyrenees. they evidently can't/won't advertise black diamond gear on their website but they do have some in stock and will sell it to you if you ask (i ended up with bd ice screws at a good price). this might be true of barrabes as well. FUCK THE MAN.

[JayB]

Just an update on the BD letter. I got a response from someone there a day or two after I sent the e-mail acknowledging my letter, and they've promised to send a reply responding to the statement in my letter shortly. No word on whether or not they'll be okay with me posting their response to this site, but if they are I'll be sure to share it with everyone.

I just hope that my letter will not jeopardize my efforts to secure a sponsorship from those fellows. I even had an original pitch for them, to the effect of "Many potential customers have expressed reservations about purchasing your high end gear, fearing that the combination of pricy high-end gear and low-end skills will make them look like a bunch of weak-ass yuppie posers who read into thin air too many times. However, I've overcome any such reservations and by way of example that it's okay to combine the high-end tools of a hardened alpinist with the skills of a pretty low-end weekend hack. Once they see me out there with a pair o' Cobras and some Bionics they'll know that it's okay and your sales volumes will skyrocket. So much so that you can sell the stuff here at Euro prices and still turn a profit..."

[hakioawa]

There is exactly one reason prices are higher in the US. . . . . . . . .We'll pay it!

Yes thats right. Believe it or not gear suppliers like to charge people more if they can. Why is gas more expensive in Seattle than Index? Because people are willing to pay for it. You want it cheaper? Drive to index.

But, there is something you can do about it. Buy from overseas. Ive bought gear from both Barrabes and Telemark Pyreness. Great prices and excelent service. This is the ONLY WAY we will get better deals in the states.

[willstrickland]

I just got an order in from Barrabes yesterday, took four business days to arrive...ended up paying about 35% less than I would have here.

Placed and order with sportextreme.com yesterday for some cramps and a few pins, Rambo comps for like $115, that's about $60-$70 less than Climbmax's price.

Anyone know of any other similar shops? I need some pins and Barrabes doesn't carry much in the way of Camp pins (which are identical to BD in the LA sizes...forged in the same factory in Italy, the "Lost Arrow" name is even forged into the pin so they might paint "camp" on there or BD but otherwise same pin). Barrabes only had one size in stock. You can also get Camp LAs in the US for less than the same BD, but instead of the $13.50 for a BD LA they're about $10. From Barrabes they're more like $6, hell I'd stock up on those just to have them and if money runs short you can sling those things in the valley for $10 each after using them for years and still make a profit. I've got friends with LAs on their rack that are like 15 years old passed down from old codgers who beat on them for a decade.

[cj001f]

Nevermind.Carl

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: cj001f ]

[Neri]

Only 2 days from order to my door step (I live in NYC) Barrabes rule it take Mgear 5 business days and Mgear a lot more expensive. to accomplish the same thing

[ 12-11-2001: Message edited by: Neri ]

[Cpt.Caveman]

YOU better have T1 line not copper if you shop http://www.cham3s.com

[epb]

I'm suprised at the fast service you all have gotten with Barrabes...my order still hasn't arrived, hmmm. However, sportsextreme on the other hand rocks. 4 days flat.

[jeffers]

Not sure why Barrabes doesn't take advantage of the markup, but the markup is a serious percentage of the retail price.

Consider, retail price on a Suunto Altimax, $179.95, while a wholesaler I know had a catalog (wholesalers tax number required to order)listing the item for $71.50.

[mtngrrrl]

they probably don't mark up any further for several reasons. for one, they probably pay less than american retailers. just like consumers are a different market, so are the retailers. black diamond may cut their prices very low in order to penetrate the european market, which allows european retailers to sell bd stuff at a price comparable to local brands. in bd's eyes, this would be worth it since a) americans are still paying top dollar and b) europeans won't give bd a try if they can buy local brands for hundreds less.

another thing to keep in mind when comparing prices is the extremely favorable exchange rate for the dollar right now. maybe in a year barrabes won't be such a sweet deal, and it will have nothing to do with their prices, just the exchange rate.

this is a great topic that we've been talking about at home. i'm willing to pay more for goods in the u.s. we're a rich country with dough to spare compared to most places. (big words coming from a currently unemployed person. ) but i'm not willing to be financially fleeced. i'm glad that info about bd's tactics to threaten retailers has made it down to "our" level. keep that info flowing.

[Zenolith]

The following was posted on backcountryworld.com by the BD rep who signed the letter below. I, personally, won't pay retail for BD stuff b/c of their heavyhandedness with various media and retailers. I think if they want to use globalism and "free trade" for their own benefit I'm going to do it too. Any effort by a company to limit my access to the markets where I find an advantage is hypocritical.-Zenolith

Dear Black Diamond,I've just heard the newsthat BD has pressured Scarpa andFritschi into not permitting the goodfolks at Telemark-Pyreness to sell thosebrands. I understand some of yourmotivation for protecting your turf inthe states. However, I had toplop down over US$1300 hard cashthis past fall to purchase myLazer/Diamir/Mito setup through BD-Idaho Mtn ouringand, in hind sight, don't feelwe Yankee's should have to payover 40% more for gear thanour European brethren. I will nowmake it a point to putBD at the bottom and T-Pat the top of my listwhen its time for my nextmajor gear expenditures. I guess thisall comes down to economics, butthere are your economics and thereare mine. I understand yours butI must live with mine andthose are that I can't affordto throw away hundreds of extradollars on AT/Tele gear. I stillappreciate the concept of the valueadded by purchasing through local shopswho get their gear through distributorslike BD, but not at +40%.Idon't appreciate your aggressive Microsoft likemanipulation here. I just hope otherssit up and take note ofwhat you've done. T-P's worldwide businessmodel represents are new paradigm (sorryI had to use it here)in the ski industry which isoverdue for an overhaul to ridthe purchasing public of the monopolisticpricing strategies it has suffered withover the years. O.K. I'll stepdown of my soapbox now.You've clearly stepped over the line herein my mind.

A former BD customer,

Steve Durnal

[ It is Black Diamond?s policy to refrain from using the Internet (outside of our own website) as a vehicle for publishing our position or point of view. However, in this case, we felt it was worthwhile to post our response to this email as an attempt to clarify certain aspects of this situation. ]

Dear Steve,

Thanks for your post/email. Though it?s upsetting to have you referring to yourself as a ?former BD customer?, the exchange of different points of view is always a good thing in my opinion. Your dissatisfaction seems to be rooted in what things cost in our/your marketplace as compared to what things cost in other marketplaces. The Internet is certainly playing a significant role in making consumers aware of what various products cost in other markets as well as speeding up the process of moving to a ?global? pricing scenario for consumer goods. This is a sticky issue that everybody, especially those who are involved in the making or selling of any consumer good or service that is sold internationally, is wrestling with.

Everyone wants the best value and price that they can get when it comes to spending their hard-earned dough. We feel exactly the same way so we understand where you?re coming from! I?d like to respond to a few of your points and make a few of my own.

First, let me assure you that no one at Scarpa, Fritschi, Black Diamond or Idaho Mountain Touring (or any BD dealer for that matter) is parking a Mercedes in their garage with the wild profits being made selling telemark or AT gear! Frankly, this is a tough business to be in (granted, no business is easy) but what makes it a very rewarding business to be in is the fact that we all, just like you, share a love for skiing in the backcountry. Any business needs profit to survive, grow and invest the millions (yes, millions!) of dollars it takes to develop killer new product, but counting the money is not the motivating factor for any of us.

It seems there are two issues here. The first is the difference in price from one market to another and the second is Telemark-Pyrenees being asked to limit their sales to their marketplace.

What goes into the cost and pricing of these products in the U.S. market and why is this different than the cost and pricing of the same products in the French market? First, there are big differences in the costs of sales and promotion between these two markets and this certainly affects retail pricing. Another factor affecting retail pricing is the cost of product development. Unlike most distributors BD is a co-developer of all our ski-line product, even if we are not the manufacturers. I?m not talking about sitting at a sales meeting and offering our opinions, I?m talking about design, engineering, field-testing and travel costs.

The biggest factor affecting retail pricing differences is the actual landed cost of the product. This obviously is a combination of the price the product is sold to Black Diamond for along with freight and duty. All of these are different for both the French and U.S. markets. The transatlantic freight is included in the U.S. retail price and obviously is not in the French retail price. You also are beating the U.S. duty, which again is included in the U.S. retail price, unless you are unlucky enough to have customs notice your package!

But honestly, the biggest difference is due to how the product is priced from the manufacturer for the different markets. In other words Black Diamond and the French distributor do not have the same basic product cost. This happens for a variety of reasons. Different economies, the fact that a manufacturer may be making a price play for market-share, currency factors, etc. all factor into it.

If Black Diamond and our Dealers were to try and match French retail prices on telemark and AT gear we would go out of business. Not because we are crappy business people but because our marketplace costs are different, simple as that. Can BD and our dealers become more efficient? Sure, we are working hard to do exactly that because our survival depends on it as we move towards ?one world, one price?. Steve, you state in your email that you understand and appreciate the concept of ?value added? and that you believe that good distributors and local dealers bring that to the table but that your not willing to pay ?+40%? for it. You?re not paying that, not even close.

I?m sure that the folks at Telemark-Pyrenees are great people. I don?t know, but I would bet that they share the same passions that drive Black Diamond and our Dealers. That said, their ?business model? is not a ?new paradigm?. It?s simply a different cost structure. If they wish to compete with Black Diamond?s Dealers that?s fine with me as long as they compete on a level playing field on the basis of product assortment and service, not on the fact that they are buying product at prices designed for one market and selling it in this one.

Black Diamond has invested aggressively in order to develop Tele and AT products for our market. Black Diamond and our Dealers have worked hard and invested aggressively in building and servicing this market. Do you think it?s fair to then let a dealer from another market who has contributed no ?value added? to this market and who pays a different price for the product sell in this market?

One last thing I would like to address is your reference to the ?monopolistic price fixing strategies? of the ski industry. I just want to point out that this ?monopolistic? strategy has been anything but and the end result has been the collapse and consolidation of the manufacturing end of the ski industry over the last decade.

Steve, whether or not you?re a BD customer is your choice to make. Clearly, we seem to disagree on some basic philosophy and where the balance lies. My hope is that this response will effect that decision or at the very least explain our point of view.

Sincerely,The Employee Owners of Black Diamond Equipment LTD.

Chris Grover,Sales Manager

[CascadeClimber]

It is worth noting that Chris Grover's post is from May of 2000.

Since that time BD has reduced their wholesale prices in the U.S. It was described to me as a "significant" reduction at the wholesale level (maybe someone in the know can enlighten us?), though it seems that retail prices only came down about 10% (anyone notice that Cobras are $269 this year instead of $300?).

It's a move in the right direction by one company, but I don't think it is enough: My LaSportiva Nepal Top Extremes cost me $190 from Telemark-Pyrenees. Compare at $420 locally.

-Loren

[Maurice]

That BD letter talks about different markets and value added to the local market blah blah blah, but all Nepal top extremes come from one place. It seems simple: either the italians price discriminate to americans or we are getting bent over by our own. That is about as much sense of this as I can make!?!