Blackwater

[canyondweller]

"there’s some 100,000 contractors—I actually think there are probably more than that. That’s a strangely round number. But the fact of the matter is that we know from internal government audits that were done on the Iraq occupation that there are some 48,000 employees of private mercenary companies operating in Iraq right now. And what these companies do is they give the Bush administration extraordinary political cover. Their deaths don’t get counted, their injuries don’t get counted, their crimes don’t get reported, they don’t get investigated, they don’t get prosecuted"

 

 

Anyone else here have a problem with this?

 

A couple of hazy stats, wrapped up in someone's misguided opinion. My only problem with it is, I wasted 15 seconds reading it. Carry on.

[Serenity]

Yeah, I do. Why do you just automatically assume that SOMEONE needs to be prosecuted? Why do you condone the language of mercenary, which has been argued ad naseum in various forums and journals?

 

I have a problem with you quoting unnamed and unverified sources such as your quote above.

 

I have a problem with journalists, and obvious laymen quoting figures and stats they simply can't verify or twist to suit some purpose. In those figures I have heard that those counted were roughly 85% Iraqi and third country nationals performing important and dangerous work. Of the other 15% I would estimate a fair amount of those to be British citizens performing work in support of their governments aims. It's estimated that there are roughly 2-3K American security contractors providing for various mission objectives under control of DoD and DoS.

 

I posted a link to http://icasualties.org a few pages back which documents coalition casualties succinctly. My problem is with your reading comprehension.

 

Unless you want to pony up, get down there and volunteer I suggest you simply tip your hat, and say thanks for risking your life in a shitty war you don't support anyway.

 

BECAUSE HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE, UNLESS YOU WANT TO SUPPORT REINSTATING THE DRAFT (including yourself if you are 42 and under), WHICH MANDATES SERVICE FOR ALL CITIZENS UNDER A FAIR SYSTEM, THEN YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO OFFER INCENTIVES FOR PEOPLE TO RISK GETTING KILLED IN 140 DEGREE HEAT, 13,000 MILES FROM HOME.

[Serenity]

Furthermore, here's a piece of news you may have overlooked in your vehemence to destroy a valuable government asset. Targeted assassination attempt with collateral damage that was anticipated and ignored. But hey, these are our enemies doing this, so why should that be newsworthy? Let's bash on good Americans risking their life and limb instead.

 

http://www.kuna.net.kw/NewsAgenciesPublicSite/ArticleDetails.aspx?id=1847374&Language=en

[billcoe]

Serenity: to follow up on what JH is saying.

 

If these Bush administration mistakes were in the rearview mirror, it would be a different discussion.

 

The administration puts together a crack team of true diplomatic professionals (the Baker group led by James Baker) and ask them to devise a plan and an exit strategy that would end this with us on top. They interview all the key players on down to and including people like yourself and the Iraqi counterparts. They come up with a multi-level plan the size of a phonebook to most effectively archive a positive goal and outcome.

 

The Baker plan is debated by various experts in the open to examine potential flaws in the minutia. The state dept supports the findings.

 

Result: ignored.

 

Here we are. The admin is finally starting to look at and try one or 2 of the suggested things after what they have tried instead fail.

 

People like you should not have to pay the price for their stupidity and incompetence, let alone having our country bleed dry over it financially.

 

I mean WTF?

 

I believe that our country could use more like you, and truly wish you well. I'm only sorry to see that the shit these dumb assholes continues to try runs down onto you and folks like you. As competent as you may be, I see it a needless political posturing that only costs us money and lives.

 

I'm off the hook and don't have to pony up on this one, but I have a 17 year old son who may be in the middle of this soon....and it only increases my anger to see this kind of political bungling endlessly occurring.

 

Regards

 

Bill

[Serenity]

I know you both deserve a good response from me. I'm going to pretty busy the next couple of days, but I will respond as soon as I can.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that there has been some serious and costly mistakes by the current administration. Certainly you won't hear that rhetoric coming from my mouth, but I will defend the small man on the ground who's patriotism and career have been shot like a cannon downrange, and now left to cope. I want to make sure the little part I can play might help us achieve some type of dignity when the smoke clears.

 

Rest assured, there are good, even great men and women, on the ground trying their hardest to make things right. Have no doubt about that, and be proud of their work. No one is a bloodthirsty anything, just average folks sometimes scared for their lives, doing the job they volunteered to do.

 

Best,

 

Mike

[dt_3pin]

Well stated billcoe.

[kevbone]

but I will defend the small man on the ground who's patriotism and career have been shot like a cannon downrange, and now left to cope.

 

 

Which “small man on the ground” are you referring too? The troops that are forced to have 5 repeat duties……and are forced to go…..or the PAID mercenaries making butt loads of cash……

[canyondweller]

but I will defend the small man on the ground who's patriotism and career have been shot like a cannon downrange, and now left to cope.

 

 

Which “small man on the ground” are you referring too? The troops that are forced to have 5 repeat duties……and are forced to go…..or the PAID mercenaries making butt loads of cash……

 

Your rhetoric aside, I think this applies to all parties:

 

...just average folks sometimes scared for their lives, doing the job they volunteered to do.

[kevbone]

 

I have a problem with you quoting unnamed and unverified sources such as your quote above.

 

 

Take it for what its worth to you, this is a rather "progressive" source, but interesting topic none the less:

 

http://www.truthdig.com/interview/item/20070330_jeremy_scahill_on_soldiers_of_fortune/

 

From the original post

[kevbone]

 

...just average folks sometimes scared for their lives, doing the job they volunteered to do.

 

 

How do you see 48,000 PAID mercenaries to be volunteer?

 

 

 

 

 

[kevbone]

...just average folks sometimes scared for their lives, doing the job they volunteered to do.

 

 

So you are going to just let the killing of these small men on the ground go on and on……….simply because they “volunteered”. Where is your patriotism? How do we get them out? This occupation must stop.

 

When you go to war…..history tells us you take land and prisoners….. What land are we taking? Where are the prisoners? Well the 800 prisoners we have taken are now down to about 300 and those are still being tortured by OUR government. And the land?

 

This is a true occupation.

 

 

 

 

[canyondweller]

 

...just average folks sometimes scared for their lives, doing the job they volunteered to do.

 

 

How do you see 48,000 PAID mercenaries to be volunteer?

 

 

 

 

 

Just in case you actually need an answer to this question, I'll spell it out to you. Each of these men made a choice to take the job. Whether they get paid, or not, is immaterial; likewise, how much they get paid is a non-issue. No one press-ganged any of these guys into service. Many of them left other jobs to take this one. Does that make it clearer?

[JosephH]

Serenity, we've exchanged a couple of emails now, but I wanted to publicly state here that my issues have nothing to do with the performance of men and women trying to do their job and stay alive on the ground in Iraq and elsewhere, but, as Bill reiterated, with the decisions taken in Washington by the politicians who are responsible for the grim and increasingly stark realities our people in the region are attempting to deal with on a daily basis. They all deserve much better from our senior leadership and from us as citizens in general.

[kevbone]

 

Each of these men made a choice to take the job.

 

Good point……I guess the difference is if a contractor wanted to QUIT he or she could……we do have a volunteer army……but they cannot just walk away like a private contractor can…..there is a difference.

 

 

[rbw1966]

Just in case you actually need an answer to this question, I'll spell it out to you. Each of these men made a choice to take the job. Whether they get paid, or not, is immaterial; likewise, how much they get paid is a non-issue.

 

I could not disagree more with this. Non-issue my ass--if it wasn't an issue than why aren't those private contractors displaying their patriotism in the ranks of the military? I simply don't buy the arguement that a lot of them are retired either (if you got proof lets see it). They are leaving the military to join places like Blackwater BECAUSE of the money, not in spite of it.

 

No one press-ganged any of these guys into service. Many of them left other jobs to take this one. Does that make it clearer?

 

Clear as water--they left their other jobs for a more lucrative salary with the private contractors. Both the contractors and the military are voluntary choices, just with differing motives. No one joins the military for the salary.

[noliquidity]

Quote(taken form longer post) from Serenity,

 

 

"BECAUSE HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE, UNLESS YOU WANT TO SUPPORT REINSTATING THE DRAFT (including yourself if you are 42 and under), WHICH MANDATES SERVICE FOR ALL CITIZENS UNDER A FAIR SYSTEM, THEN YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO OFFER INCENTIVES FOR PEOPLE TO RISK GETTING KILLED IN 140 DEGREE HEAT, 13,000 MILES FROM HOME. "

 

You nailed it.

Restart the draft. We need the depth of forces, and it will get everybody, both left and right, to look at what is staring us right in the face. Did you here Turkey is massed on the Kurdistan border and is on the verge of going in? One of strategic allies(whom we DEPEND on for logistical support) is ready to invade the most stable region Iraq.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Quote(taken form longer post) from Serenity,

 

 

"BECAUSE HERE IS THE BOTTOM LINE, UNLESS YOU WANT TO SUPPORT REINSTATING THE DRAFT (including yourself if you are 42 and under), WHICH MANDATES SERVICE FOR ALL CITIZENS UNDER A FAIR SYSTEM, THEN YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO OFFER INCENTIVES FOR PEOPLE TO RISK GETTING KILLED IN 140 DEGREE HEAT, 13,000 MILES FROM HOME. "

 

You nailed it.

Restart the draft. We need the depth of forces, and it will get everybody, both left and right, to look at what is staring us right in the face. Did you here Turkey is massed on the Kurdistan border and is on the verge of going in? One of strategic allies(whom we DEPEND on for logistical support) is ready to invade the most stable region Iraq.

 

The draft is lame; make service mandatory for ALL citizens (physically and mentally competent of course) - just like Israel does.

[noliquidity]

Sounds good, as you can see from my picture though, I am counting on those two exceptions to the mandatory service rule.

[JosephH]

The draft is lame; make service mandatory for ALL citizens (physically and mentally competent of course) - just like Israel does.

 

Well, well, well - something KKK and I agree on for a change. I think two years of national service at age 18 for all citizens should be mandatory with no exceptions. Out of that you could run a lottery for military service.

[kevbone]

The biggest problem with this occupation/war is nobody knows about it……Bush just says “go shopping”…..there is no sacrifice speech from him……..its not on the news or in the paper……and when is it, it is buried on page 10……they are doing a bang up job in hiding what is happening from the general public. The Draft, however completely lame, would definitely open the eyes of America……just think if your son or daughter HAD to go die in Bushy’s little war.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Sounds good, as you can see from my picture though, I am counting on those two exceptions to the mandatory service rule.

 

After the Turks invade Kurdish Iraq and slaughter them, will they deny the Kurdish genocide for 100 years? Naw, that's impossible! Who could ever be so bold!

 

[lI1|1!]

 

[noliquidity]

I want to see what that kitten is hiding in its ears before I commit to anything

[noliquidity]

Yea, you could use the nonmiltary side of the service for updating US infrastructure, home care of the elderly,expanded Peace Corp,etc. and with the lottery rebuild troop depth which would go a long way towards increasing morale for the current group of active duty soldiers. I think, at the very least, on the nonmilitary side of this servive the age range should be extend to retirement age.

 

Albeqerque, huh( I KNOW I spelled that one wrong). That whole four corners region is like another planet, esp. S Utah and N Arizona. Doing a big slot canyon trip has been on the list for a while now. This time of year is the best time of year down there.

[billcoe]

Mike - good news for you.

 

Hope this adds to the discussion.

Link

 

Hell, they offered me $12,000 for 6 more and E-5 after 2 to re-enlist (cause I was in a combat MOS). I thought they were crazy then, and bubblegum was CHEAP back then! In fact I knew a fella who mustered out and bought a brand new Harley Sportster for $1800, that;s how long ago it was:-) But all I could think about was my beloved Pac NW, and the beauty of the rainforests and had to turn them down. The crazy bastards were making me mental and I came inches away from offing myself. Better what I have now. Money ain't everything.

 

Bet my buddy Mike Jackson is pissed he jumped out of Green Berets a tad early for the payoff though. Just saw him last month.

 

Good luck. Full story follows.

________________________________________________________________-

 

 

"By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer 28 minutes ago

 

WASHINGTON - The Pentagon has paid more than $100 million in bonuses to veteran Green Berets and Navy SEALs, reversing the flow of top commandos to the corporate world where security companies such as Blackwater USA are offering big salaries.

 

 

The retention effort, started nearly three years ago and overseen by U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., has helped preserve a small but elite group of enlisted troops with vast experience fighting the unconventional wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to Defense Department statistics.

 

Overall, more than 1,200 of the military's most specialized personnel near or already eligible for retirement have opted for payments of up to $150,000 in return for staying in uniform several more years.

 

The numbers gathered by The Associated Press and other Pentagon research indicate there has not been an extended exodus of commandos to private security companies and other businesses that value their talents.

 

"Back in 2005, we saw quite a few exits," said Rear Adm. Michael LeFever, director of the Navy's military personnel plans and policy division. "What we're seeing lately is just the opposite. We've become very aggressive."

 

Defense Secretary Robert Gates remains so concerned over the lure of high salaries in the private sector that he has directed Pentagon lawyers to explore putting no-compete clauses into contracts with security companies that would limit their recruiting abilities.

 

While special operations forces are by no means the only candidates for security jobs in Iraq that can pay hundreds of dollars a day, they are the most attractive because of the unique training they receive.

 

In addition to being proficient with weapons, many of these troops have advanced education, the ability to speak the languages of the Middle East and other regions, and the cultural awareness that comes with living among the local populations.

 

For those same reasons, the military wants to hold on to them as long as possible, and at the same time demonstrate to younger enlisted troops that there's a financial incentive for an extended career.

 

The stress of repeated deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and the opportunities for financial stability outside the military have heightened the urgency of the military's retention efforts.

 

Gates said Wednesday the Army must focus more on training foreign militaries and fighting insurgent groups — methods essential to success in the type of irregular warfare U.S. forces now face. Troops with these skills "need to be retained," Gates told the annual convention of the Association of the U.S. Army.

 

With the Pentagon expecting to spend an additional $43.5 million on commando bonuses in fiscal year 2008, which began Oct. 1, statistics show the military is building a more mature special operations force.

 

In addition to retention bonuses, enlisted special operations personnel ranging from corporals to sergeants major also qualify for a special duty pay of $375 a month above their normal salary.

 

The Special Operations Command bonus program was approved in late 2004 and targeted noncommissioned Army, Navy and Air Force commandos with 19 years or more of service. After 20 years, military personnel are eligible to retire at half pay and have lifetime access to military medical care and other benefits.

 

At the 19-year mark, an Army sergeant first class earns about $63,400 annually, a figure that doesn't include what the Congressional Budget Office calls "noncash" benefits available to military members such as subsidized child care, lower grocery costs at base stores and free access to recreational facilities.

 

The "critical skills retention" bonuses work on a sliding scale and are offered to senior enlisted personnel and warrant officers who form the backbone of the force.

 

Those agreeing to stay an extra six years receive $150,000; five years is worth $75,000; four years, $50,000; three years, $30,000; two years, $18,000; and one extra year, $8,000.

 

Since January 2005, 2,326 have been eligible and more than half took bonuses, statistics show.

 

Those who didn't opt for an extension may have retired, or they may be waiting for the right time to take the bonus: accepting it during a battle-zone deployment makes the payment tax free.

 

Within the Army Special Forces, the largest U.S. commando branch better known as the Green Berets, more than 900 have traded time for money. More than a third of these troops agreed to six-year extensions.

 

Overall, at a cost of $75 million, the Pentagon bought an average of 3.3 additional years from Green Berets with nearly two decades of experience in combat engineering, communications, intelligence and field medicine, figures show.

 

Just over 300 Navy SEALs — Sea, Air and Land commandos — have signed up for longer tours at a cost of $27.6 million. More than half agreed to six additional years.

 

The Air Force pool of combat controllers and pararescuemen with at least 19 years of service is the smallest; 32 of these troops opted for bonuses costing $3 million. Half took the six-year package.

 

While Special Operations Command officials view the results as positive, retention figures probably will do little to settle the heated debate over recruiting tactics used by private security companies.

 

"The disgraceful cycle works like this: Contractors hire away military talent. The military finds itself short of skilled workers, so contractors get more contracts. With more money, they hire away more uniformed talent," wrote Ralph Peters, a retired Army officer and a frequent commentator on military issues, in a recent opinion piece in the New York Post.

 

Blackwater USA has a large contract with the State Department to guard U.S. diplomats in Iraq. Since a Sept. 16 shooting in Baghdad that left 17 Iraqis dead, the company has been sharply criticized for the way it operates.

 

At an Oct. 2 congressional hearing, Democratic lawmakers accused the company of poaching from the military's ranks. Erik Prince, Blackwater's top executive, defended his company, saying not every one wants to stay in uniform for 20 years.

 

"At some point they're going to get out after four, six, eight, whatever that period of time is, whatever they decide, because we don't have a draft. We have a voluntary service," Prince said. "Yes, a lot of them come to work for companies like us, but not at any higher rate than they ever did before."

 

Chris Taylor, a former vice president for strategic initiatives at Blackwater, said Prince's claim is backed by a July 2005 study from the Government Accountability Office that said attrition levels within military specialties favored by contractors were about the same as before the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

 

More recently, Chris MacPherson reached a similar conclusion in a research project he conducted over the summer in the Pentagon's special operations directorate.

 

"I found no evidence that (private security companies) have increased the number of U.S. special operations forces leaving the military," said MacPherson, a graduate student at Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

 

Of the estimated 25,000 security personnel working in Iraq, only about 2,000 are Americans and they earn between $350 to $500 a day, said Doug Brooks, president of the International Peace Operations Association.

 

That means there aren't that many high-paying security jobs available even if a service member leaves the military, said Brooks, whose organization represents many companies doing business in Iraq.

 

"There's no drain on the military," Brooks said. "This is way overblown."