Sleeping Bag Decisions

[Rodchester]

Regarding dryloft, and other comparative materials, they usually add about 5 degrees to the bag. In otherwords, a 0 degree 700-fill down bag with nylon becomes a -5 degree when a material like dryloft is added.

[DPS]

Colin, you know my opinion on the subject. My suggestion is to read what other climbers in the know have to say about synthetic, like Bart Paul and Mark Twight.

[This message has been edited by danielpatricksmith (edited 07-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by danielpatricksmith (edited 07-09-2001).]

[Zenolith]

My bag is a Marmot Massif 10*. I like it and it is roomy. I don't know how much it weighs but it seems light. If I was buying now I would get the lightest bag that wouldn't cramp my thrashing.

I enjoy a good snow ditch for sleeping in the summer and am never cold since I wear a clean base layer to bed. In winter I am in a single wall tent and have noticed that if the condensation freezes (usually) on my bag I can shake it off outside before I stuff it. I was cold on the 4th night out in Feb at 7000' near B Top this year, but it wasn't too bad.

If you are going to be out a long time a light bivy sac will not add much weight or bulk considering the weight and bulk savings of down over synth.

[haireball]

in thirty years of climbing, twenty of which were as a guide nearly full-time, right here in our "down-unfriendly" Pacific Northwest, I've never found a synthetic bag to measure up to a top-notch down bag. The set-up I've had for the last 11 years, after my previous bag was stolen, is a two bag system, which includes a Feathered Friends 0' bag with the oversized girth option, and a 30' summer-weight bag. The light bag weighs less than a pound, the heavier bag weighs barely two pounds, and using the light one as a liner inside the larger one yields a less-than-four-pound bag equal to the rigors of Denali or antarctica. the combination gives me three options, at the price of a decent expedition-grade bag. the price and versatility make me wonder why anyone would buy any differently. buy down, and get the best down you can find. it may feel expensive now, but ten or more years down the road, when the bag is still performing like new, you'll realize what a bargain it was.

[Colin]

I finally need to buy a new sleeping bag, and am faced with some difficult decisions.

First of all, I need to choose between down and synthetic insulation. I have been told that there is a new type of Polarguard out, that is very close to acheiving the weight and compressibility of down. A synthetic bag sounds very enticing for multi day, winter, CASCADE (wet) outings.

Also, I am not sure whether to get an ultralight bag, or more of a general use one. An ultralight bag (such as new FF Vireo?) would be perfect for when I know I'll need to bivy, but still need to go super light. A heavier bag I could use in winter, and I'm not sure what I would use in winter if I got an ultralight bag.

Can anyone convince me either way?

[Rodchester]

Ask yourself this question...When is the last time you truely got your bag soaked?

Down is the way to go. It lasts 5-10 times longer than synthetic, is way more compressable, and is way lighter. No synthetic can do all three...plain and simple.

I have a -5 degree 775-fill, dryloft that is about 3 1/2 pounds and it sees duty in fall, winter, and spring. It beathes great and is fairly water proof, or should I say resistant.

I also have a 30 degree 775-fill nylon. It weighs under two pounds and is the size of a small loaf of bread, I mean small loaf. This is my summertime and or bivy bag. It rocks.

I have ruined many sythetic sleeping bags which were supposed to be as good as down. A good friend calls them tupperware. If they are always comparing themselves to down, why not just get down.

I recommend spending the cash and going with at least 700-fill and a 0 to -5 range. This is a great all around bag. When you can afford to pick up an ultra-light weight one then do so. But in the meantime the 0 degree will do it all. Sure, you want to get a good stuff sack that is truely waterproof, just to be safe.

I don't care what anyone says about synthetics, they suck. Sure if you are a rafter or boater where the odds are good it would get wet, sythetic makes sense. But here in the Cascades?

Think about it. When you check the weather and it says, shitty followed by shitty, do you say...hey I'm getting out my bag and going climbing. No, you go to the bar.

When you are high on some peak and unexpected storm blows in, are you either in a tent or a bivy sack? Yes. If not you are going to bail.

If it is turning out to be a long storm do you stay there? No, you bail.

Down rocks.

Best down = Feathered friends. Marmot makes some excellent bags as well. Also, if you can get your hands on a Moonstone 800-fill they loft up with the best of them.

Best for the money = -5 REI Downtime with Elements.

To carry the weight and bulk or not to carry the weight and bulk? That is the question.

My 2 cents and your decision. Good Luck.

 

[This message has been edited by Rodchester (edited 07-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rodchester (edited 07-09-2001).]

[CascadeClimber]

Amen, Rodchester.

I'll add that I think Dryloft is a good investment. It adds some warmth, helps protect from those "Oh-shit" spills in the tent, and makes the bag much more friendly during a bivy without tent or bivy sack.

-CC

[DPS]

So far the only argument for down that holds water (pun indended) is the durability issue. Down does last much longer than synthetic and in the long run is more cost effective. The weight and compressibilty arguments are moot, however, as new synthetics have drastically closed the gap. On hard, multiday apline routes it is very difficult to keep the down from absorbing moisture from your sweaty body. Pulling your soggy bag out of the stuff sack after a hard day of climbing really tests your resolve. Down does work best for most situations where one can stop and dry it out, but I have been burned on alpine routes by my high quality, Western Mountaineering Dryloft bag.

[erik]

synthetic is not bad at all. the matter of fact is that i am allergic to down, so i hav eno option other then to get synthetic bags...in the yrs i have been cimbing my bag seems to end up wet after a multiday trip....i have woken up in the middle of the nite with it raining and being to lazy to get the tent/bivi out i slept in the rain. warm and cozy with only a ligt damp top of the bag. the next night i crawled in and within an hour or so, the whole bag was dry(note i did set tent up next night) i have seen friends down bags wet out do to not closing bivi sacks and have not enjoyed the unrestful nights.

also as far as cost goes you can get good synthetic bags for $100 +/- few bucks... $100 x 8 bags = $800. i have found the synthetic bags last about 1.5 yrs x 8 bags = 12 yrs.... plus with cheaper bags you are not locked into one thig for along time, which as it seems climbing tech moves along everyone else does too.... down bag $800 x 1 bag = $800. not sure on life expectancy of down bags(i'm sure it is variable & i know you can refill them)

good luck and buy what YOU think will work for you. it is your money.

[Yossarian]

REI Polar Pod 0

$150.00

4 lbs. 12 oz. 0 degrees Fahrenheit

11 x 20 inches

REI Down Time 0

$220.00

3 lbs. 9 oz. 0 degrees Fahrenheit

600-fill goose down

9 x 19 inches

$70 more and you'll have a bag that weighs a pound less and lasts five times as long. However, it depends what kind of climbs you do. Most of mine are three days or less, so if the bag gets wet it's no big deal. Longer adventures may require the bombproof warmth of synthetic.

[Rodchester]

DPS,

What synthetic closes the gap to down?

I have never seen any come close on compresability or weight. Unless you use a compression bag on the synthetic, in which case you quicken the destruction of the synthetic material.

Put the bags side by side, same length, same cut, same temp rating, no comparision.

Sure down sucks bad when it is wet and if you climb in the rain a lot, maybe sythetics are for you. Synthetics still get wet and miserable, they just continue to provide some, that's right just some, insulation properties when wet. Additionally, the dry MUCH faster than down.

In all the years I have been out in the hills, I have never gotten a bag, down or synthetic, soaked. I'm not old, but I'm not young either.

Sure, it is a choice thing...to carry the weight or not to carry the weight?

Rain...I'm in the bar getting soaked in a different way. No goretex needed in there...

[Billy]

Synthetic bags rule on multi day alpine routes where you can't hang out and dry your down bag. In the colder ranges, where you are drying most of your wet socks, gloves and inners out in the bag, the sythetic bags are clearly better. Especially when you have to pack your bag wet and then take it out and sleep in it that night.

For multi day routes in the cascades where the weather is good, a down bag is fantastic for the weight. And if the weather gets bad on the last day or 2 you'll be fine.

Synthetic compresibility is a bummer though and there is no way around it. Down rules in that department!

[EddieE]

I've had both a 3-D Liteloft and down bag (both from MtnHardware and w/ Dryloft shells) and have been much happier with down. I agree with the above posters - in 7 yrs of PNW climbing in all seasons I have yet to get my bag wet. I'm always diligent about keeping it dry (in a stuff sack inside a compression bag), and if I'm hot enough to be sweating in it, I'm sleeping on top of it. It compresses to half the size of my synthetic, and I think that's what's important when going light and fast.

[DPS]

Rodchester,

The new Polargard Delta comes closer than any other synthetic to matching the compressiblity and loft of down. No, it certainly does not match 800 fill power (more like 550) but the trade off can be worth it.

You keep mentioning the choice comes down to weight which is of course very important but the moisture factor is also critical especially if you are doing multiday 'alpine' routes where there is no chance to dry out a bag.

The final straw for me was failing on a huge, 4000+ foot winter alpine route. The weather was stellar, cold and clear, no precip. My Dryloft down bag was inside of a bivi sack but was soaked in the morning from the moisture of my body and clothes being pushed into the down and trapped there by the dryloft and goretex. We knew we would have to bivi again before getting up and over the route, but our wet bags (in addition to a poorly functioning stove) persuaded us to retreat. I have used synthetics in similar situations with much better results.

Bart Paul told me one of the reasons for his fast ascent of Cassin Ridge last year (56 hours) was that his partner's down bag had become soaked and useless and he refused to bivi again so they simply kept climbing.

Dan

[This message has been edited by danielpatricksmith (edited 07-11-2001).]

[Rodchester]

DPS,

I can appreciate synthetic in those types of situations. But still a good truely waterproof stuff sack would have prevented that. Nothing fancy either.

For the average joe (or josephine) cascade climber...it is time to get down brother!!!

But point taken on keeping down dry...it is a must.

[erik]

synthetic bags should not have a moisture barrier like dryloft or conduit, it doe snot allow for the moisture to escape the bag, causing to be clamy and not dry out fast enough....though with down i am sure that it is required.

dryloft+down=good

dryloft+synthetic=bad

[Wopper]

I am down with Down. I have had The North Face Snowshoe (which I only paid $18 for thanks to Rodchester) and currently have a Moonstone -5 down with Dryloft. I to have never had a bag get soaked. When it rains or otherwise sucks I am sitting on the bar stool next to Rodchester.

Out of curiosity Eric, where are you getting a decent bag for $100?

[Lambone]

The moral of the story is:

You need two bags, or three, or four. Suck it up and spend the $.

Down is the way to go for quick blasts, cause if it rains you'll probably just go to Vantage anyway. And synthetic is good for when you know you will be out and you don't have the luxury of just hiking out to the trailhead.

I use my synthetic for Walls, Wet trips, and car camping. Down is the way to go for everything else. If it rains, make keeping your bag dry the number one priority, and hope you have a good bivi sac.

[viktor]

go see Jim Nelson at Pro sports. He'll fix you up with no BS.

[fleblebleb]

Thanks Rodchester. Was primaloft ever used much? Looks like most companies use polarguard. I was trying to figure out why, smells like marketing to me. Something about a small company that makes primaloft vs. a bigger one with polarguard, blah-dee-blah.

 

If someone reading this has worn out a primaloft bag (or has one that's still going) I'd sure like to hear from you... Jim Nelson seems to like them enough.

[CascadeClimber]

Marmot is closing out their Arroyo 30 degree down bag from last year for $169. It stuffs into the smallest OR stuff sack and weighs less that my big down jacket. Since I bought it I haven't had my -5 Aguille off the hanger.

Also, I agree with using down for short blitzes around here and snythetic for longer trips. If you feel you must go out and do battle with the elements, then go with synthetic. Otherwise get down and spend the rainy days with the fam or at the bar.

-CC

[titsmack]

I hear there is a newer company called nunatak that makes a light down sleeping bag without a zipper, and also a half bag. Has anyone used their stuff?

[cmonster]

I have some Nunatka gear. A few parkas, a half bag, a backcountry blanket and an alpinist. The gear is excellenct. Super light. Super quality. The service is MUCH better than Feathered Friends. MUCH!!! Check them out.

http://www.nunatakgear.com

[fleblebleb]

I have the same decision to make, I want to replace my 13 years old -5 degree synthetic bag (still going strong, I think it's made of steel) with something less warm and oh-so-much lighter and more compressible.

I like to sleep on snow in a bivi bag, which can make for pretty bad condensation, wet toeboxes etc. so I figured I'd stick to synthetics.

I thought I had made up my mind to get an Integral Designs Renaissance, $200 for what I think is a *really* nice 20 degree primaloft bag, but all this down advocacy has me rethinking the matter.

Has anyone used the renaissance? Thumbs up? Any good or bad experiences with primaloft?

Can anyone suggest one or two down bags I could check out that are comparable to the renaissance in terms of warmth?

 

[erik]

also rememeber if you are wall climbing in yosemite or zion and have to rescued they might/will fine you for having improper gear. so colin maybe oyu should by a lightweight warm weather synthetic bag and cold weather heavyweight down bag.