Playing the same game as our liberal CNN

[sheaf_stout]

While the liberal media bears down on the war in Iraq with flamboyant reporting and numbers they fail to bring into light numbers from the previous administration.

 

http://www.nysun.com/article/48926

 

The total military dead in the Iraq war between 2003 and this month stands at about 3,133. This is tragic, as are all deaths due to war, and we are facing a cowardly enemy unlike any other in our past that hides behind innocent citizens. Each death is blazoned in the headlines of newspapers and Internet sites. What is never compared is the number of military deaths during the Clinton administration: 1,245 in 1993; 1,109 in 1994; 1,055 in 1995; 1,008 in 1996. That's 4,417 deaths in peacetime but, of course, who's counting?

[chris]

What are these fatalities attributed to? Training? The Serbian conflict? The swim test in boot camp? No source was given for these statistics.

And meanwhile, the 3,133 fatalities mentioned above occurred only in Iraq. I think its safe to assume the total is higher when statistics from Afghanistan and training exercises are added.

[ZimZam]

Could you tell me the number of wounded during these same time periods?

[tvashtarkatena]

The 3,133 includes only US military casualties that occur within Iraq's borders. The wounded that later die after they are evacuated from Iraq for treatment are not included in this tally.

 

Creative accounting at it's best.

 

Sheep Strut, using his own brand of creative accounting we've all come to know and love, also did not include military personnel that have died outside of Iraq (in Afghanistan, in training, etc) from 2003 to the present.

 

His message in posting this, if there in fact is one, seems to be this: 3,133 soldiers? Not a very big number, really. What's the big deal?

 

Perhaps he should take the issue up with the families of the dead.

Edited February 22, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[sheaf_stout]

Perhaps he should take the issue up with the families of the dead.

 

I have indeed served as a squad leader during a 21 gun salute. I've sat in a bunker and seen people get shot in my platoon. What have you ever done for your country? Protest the war and incite criticism or oppose it in such a way to undermine soldiers?

 

I won't bother responding to the other ludicrous assinine assumptions which you have made.

 

You can try to pick apart the article and numbers to favor your argument all you want. Interesting facts nonetheless.. Don't be upset because I send them your way for consumption.

[ZimZam]

Perhaps he should take the issue up with the families of the dead.

What have you ever done for your country? Protest the war and incite criticism or oppose it in such a way to undermine soldiers?

 

People like you annoy me. You served. That's nice. So did I. I protest. I guess being a jarhead allows me to do that. I didn't realize that military service makes me any better than the next man.

[Doug]

First of all, my thanks to you for serving our country.

 

The author of the article seems to be implying that military deaths occur regardless of the level of conflict and that those of us who are opposed to the war in Iraq should just quit whining and support our troops?

 

Well as has been stated here, the author is playing loose with facts and figures. Yes, there have been military deaths in times of peace such as during the Clinton administration. I'm sure there were also an equivalent number of deaths during the Carter, Reagan and Bush I administrations as well. But what he doesn't seem to acknowledge is that the majority of us anti-war pussies cite the 3,000+ war causalties as unneccesary because the piece of crap ignoramous and his henchmen present and since run off lied to the very people that they are sworn to protect to get us into this conflict. So if we're not fighting the Iraqi insurgents and we have ~1,000 or so of the expected mortality attrition in the service - that's just an average statistic. It could happen to any of us at any time. It's what got those 3,000 over there to get killed that pisses me off. I salute their commitment and patiotic sacrifice. But we really have no business there in the first place. Al Queda followed us in, and there were no WMD's. Period.

[tvashtarkatena]

Perhaps he should take the issue up with the families of the dead.

 

I have indeed served as a squad leader during a 21 gun salute. I've sat in a bunker and seen people get shot in my platoon. What have you ever done for your country? Protest the war and incite criticism or oppose it in such a way to undermine soldiers?

 

I won't bother responding to the other ludicrous assinine assumptions which you have made.

 

You can try to pick apart the article and numbers to favor your argument all you want. Interesting facts nonetheless.. Don't be upset because I send them your way for consumption.

 

You also failed to point out, in your signature fashion, that military deaths (and death rates) under HW Bush were 50% higher than during the Clinton years you cited, and under Reagan for a similar period were more than double. This is, of course, making the huge assumption that your original post had any point whatsoever to make.

 

As for your frequent need to brag to the rest of us; save it. A lot of us have served in the military here. BFD.

 

And as for the right to protest; it is guaranteed under the first amendment for every person on our soil. It is not 'earned', by military service or anything else. We are born with it. That's the central idea of what our nation is all about. I'm surprised that someone such as yourself who has sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States doesn't have a clear grasp of what, exactly, they've fought for.

[sheaf_stout]

As for your frequent need to brag to the rest of us; save it. A lot of us have served in the military here. BFD.

 

I'm interested in what capacity you have served and where. Did you want to share with us? Or can we just assume that you are the outspoken type of coward that is too much of a pansy to actually serve?

 

Please go ahead and cite all of my frequent bragging outbursts one by one.

 

You've come onto these threads and made several accusations of racism and now you want to target my credibility when it comes to matters of discussion war and death.

 

Have you ever had you BDUs spattered with blood from your fellow squad members? Have you ever had to call in a medevac and watch your battle buddy take his last breath before medical help arrived? I didn't think so.

 

 

[Doug]

Have you ever had you BDUs spattered with blood from your fellow squad members? Have you ever had to call in a medevac and watch your battle buddy take his last breath before medical help arrived? I didn't think so.

 

So wouldn't it bother you in the least bit that this occurred because the President of the United States lied to put you and your battle buddies in that position in the first place?

[foraker]

'm interested in what capacity you have served and where. Did you want to share with us? Or can we just assume that you are the outspoken type of coward that is too much of a pansy to actually serve?

 

Actually, the only military people that ever impress me, or any other people in positions of power or authority or wealth or simply any kind of accomplishment, are those that never ever feel the need to brag or proclaim their deeds or accomplishments. You, sir, strike me as someone in serious need of constant validation. As is often said 'money talks, but wealth whispers'. Seems to me serving your country is the supreme selfless act and not one you get to trot out whenever you disagree with someone's protests about your country's actions. Or did you only join the military so you could blow shit up? Met plenty of those, unfortunately.

[sheaf_stout]

'm interested in what capacity you have served and where. Did you want to share with us? Or can we just assume that you are the outspoken type of coward that is too much of a pansy to actually serve?

 

Actually, the only military people that ever impress me, or any other people in positions of power or authority or wealth or simply any kind of accomplishment, are those that never ever feel the need to brag or proclaim their deeds or accomplishments. You, sir, strike me as someone in serious need of constant validation. As is often said 'money talks, but wealth whispers'. Seems to me serving your country is the supreme selfless act and not one you get to trot out whenever you disagree with someone's protests about your country's actions. Or did you only join the military so you could blow shit up? Met plenty of those, unfortunately.

 

You people are soliciting this sort of response. Now when you get the answer you don't like you try to shoot someone's personal credibility apart.

 

I did not serve in Iraq. But I did serve in the Mog and the blood started spilling before we even left the USA. I called in the first medevac as we unceremoniously concluded some tirehouse training and watched PV2 XXX take his last breath waiting for the blackhawk. There were several other members in my platoon which made larger sacrifices than boneheads on the internet trying to play out the acts war from their keyboards thousands of miles away.

 

Validation is key when you want to talk about any subject and claim some sort of understanding about the matter at hand. The pathetic example here was trying to suggest that I might have a problem explaining reasoning for death to family members at home. Let me tell you that I have done this. I looked the widow in the eye and could only offer a few humble words to her and the less than one year old infant son he left behind. Two days before I was busy cleaning his blood from the eyelets of my boots and recalled the entire incident over and over again. Within a few weeks we were seeing firefights and skirmishes on a daily basis. There were plenty of people that never came home from that trashpile too. I would say that it more than qualifies me to respond and tell him what a jackass he really is. So get off your trip about explaining death.

 

The only trashpile I see is the pile of idiots here that think they know about spilling blood and the families which have to deal with it.

 

 

My first hand service alone; side by side as a comrade puts me far above bottom feeders which come in here and think they can politicize me into a corner about this thing.

 

 

[chris]

I see.

 

Since I haven't served, than I can't bitch about what happening to my best friend, or my brother-in-law.

 

Only I did serve. Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class, Fleet Marine Force - that means (for a ground-pounder like you, Sheaf) that I moved with a weapon and with the Corps and gave up my non-combatant status. A lot of the leathernecks and devil dogs and Docs who are in Afghanistan right now went through Mountain Leader Courses that I instructed. And a lot of my friends are still in, and I read the NY Times every week to see if I recognize any names.

 

So, by your standard, I've earned the right to have an opinion. And I say its bullshit that I - an American citizen - should have to stand up and justify myself like this to have an opinion about my country and my government.

 

Fact is, that article you posted sucks ass. No sources are given for the statistics, nor are all the fatalities service-wide accounted for. Its un-fucking-deniable that more airmen, sailors, marines and soldiers than 3,133 have died, since that number doesn't include Afghanistan and the typical accidents that occur from training and operating. And it didn't included the crippled casualties or the fatalities that occurred out-of-theater from injuries. So the comparison from the Bush administration to the Clinton administration is a complete fucking waste of my time. We'll ignore the fucking piss-poor journalism, writing, and editing right now.

 

And I'm pissed that my President and Commander-In-Chief fluffed up the intelligence briefing better than a porn star to pump up public support for invading Iraq. And I'm pissed that my best friend has already served three tours, and has shrapnel in his back and knee from a fucking IED in Bahgdad, and still continues to serve because he's a brave, honorable, soldier. And I'm pissed that my brother-in-law - a helicopter electronics technician - is having to do patrols right now in Iraq because we don't have enough infantry to do the job that needs to get done. And I'm pissed that my President's strategy has only emboldened Iran and started a civil war in a country that we had no legitimate reason to enter.

 

So fuck off.

[sheaf_stout]

I see.

 

Since I haven't served, than I can't bitch about what happening to my best friend, or my brother-in-law.

 

Only I did serve. Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class, Fleet Marine Force - that means (for a ground-pounder like you, Sheaf) that I moved with a weapon and with the Corps and gave up my non-combatant status. A lot of the leathernecks and devil dogs and Docs who are in Afghanistan right now went through Mountain Leader Courses that I instructed. And a lot of my friends are still in, and I read the NY Times every week to see if I recognize any names.

 

So, by your standard, I've earned the right to have an opinion. And I say its bullshit that I - an American citizen - should have to stand up and justify myself like this to have an opinion about my country and my government.

 

Fact is, that article you posted sucks ass. No sources are given for the statistics, nor are all the fatalities service-wide accounted for. Its un-fucking-deniable that more airmen, sailors, marines and soldiers than 3,133 have died, since that number doesn't include Afghanistan and the typical accidents that occur from training and operating. And it didn't included the crippled casualties or the fatalities that occurred out-of-theater from injuries. So the comparison from the Bush administration to the Clinton administration is a complete fucking waste of my time. We'll ignore the fucking piss-poor journalism, writing, and editing right now.

 

And I'm pissed that my President and Commander-In-Chief fluffed up the intelligence briefing better than a porn star to pump up public support for invading Iraq. And I'm pissed that my best friend has already served three tours, and has shrapnel in his back and knee from a fucking IED in Bahgdad, and still continues to serve because he's a brave, honorable, soldier. And I'm pissed that my brother-in-law - a helicopter electronics technician - is having to do patrols right now in Iraq because we don't have enough infantry to do the job that needs to get done. And I'm pissed that my President's strategy has only emboldened Iran and started a civil war in a country that we had no legitimate reason to enter.

 

So fuck off.

 

You're extremely delusional pal. I never said that you had to validate your opinion of the war by service. I am arguing about the suggestion to ME that I don't know anything about the spilling of blood by our troops and relating it to family members. I offer my service and experience here on that subject to some internet combatant. Those are facts far beyond your angry emotions or their spineless debate.

 

Whether or not you are pissed about the Commander in Chief is your problem and doesn't relate to me.

 

The numbers are compelling. If you don't like them then maybe you can also lodge complaints to the journalists which are utilizing them day in and day out as well. Your words are strong but they're not really on target.

 

I don't care what training you ever did. It does not necessarily prepare you for what really happens out there.

 

You people are silly. I have yet to curse any of you, call you a racist pig, yet many of you continue your barrages with disrepectful and personal wording along these lines. I'd say that some of you have very serious and unhealthy anger management issues to deal with.

 

[sheaf_stout]

A few more things.. Clinton was a pile of shit. Many of my fellow soldiers perished in the dirty streets of the Mog because of him. The burning towers in New York in 2001 should be attibuted to his presidency as well...

 

 

[sexual_chocolate]

don't take sheaf stout seriously. he's just trolling (which is kinda ugly considering the subject matter), and as you have noticed, fails to reply to anything significant or factually incongruent with his assertions.

 

oh well, that's kinda par for the course here: assert your opinions, over and over and over again, and ignore what the other person says. standard fair for politics, religion....

 

have fun playing your games of willful ignorance.

[sheaf_stout]

don't take sheaf stout seriously. he's just trolling (which is kinda ugly considering the subject matter), and as you have noticed, fails to reply to anything significant or factually incongruent with his assertions.

 

oh well, that's kinda par for the course here: assert your opinions, over and over and over again, and ignore what the other person says. standard fair for politics, religion....

 

have fun playing your games of willful ignorance.

 

On the contrary. I think I have contributed a couple of examples where I escape your typical stereotypes and offered polarizing alterntatives to your far out views here. Do you want to talk about all those racist comments and illegal immigration next? Maybe I will revisit it if I get bored. I've actually shed some light to my background and life where people like you hide the behind your internet anonymity and cry out against everything I stand for in complete comfort because you fear and or shame being exposed or labeled for what you truly are.

[Doug]

So exactly what point are you trying to make by posting the article? I won't minimize media bias; it does exist on both ends of the media spectrum. However, the article is written with an inflammatory style that doesn't substantiate any of the data it presents.

 

My point is that what makes the 3,000+ casualties in Iraq intolerable is that George Bush and his administration lied to congress and to the american public to go there.

 

I try to stick to the facts here, but I would like to point out a tad bit of hypocrisy in your posting:

 

You daid: "Whether or not you are pissed about the Commander in Chief is your problem and doesn't relate to me".

 

You then said "A few more things.. Clinton was a pile of shit. Many of my fellow soldiers perished in the dirty streets of the Mog because of him. The burning towers in New York in 2001 should be attibuted to his presidency as well".

 

Is this really what your agenda is here? Let me say this a different way:

 

A few more things.. Bush II is a pile of shit. Many of my fellow soldiers perished in the dirty streets of the Iraq because of him and his lies. According to the 9/11 commission, the burning towers in New York in 2001 should be attibuted to his missteps in his presidency as well.

 

Now is this really worth arguing about?

 

 

[tvashtarkatena]

One might get the impression from Sheaf's dramatic accounts of fierce, daily combat that he lost half his squad in Somalia. Unfortunately, as usual, the numbers don't support this fantasy. Total US combat casualties in Somalia amounted to 29 guys over 2 years. 18 of those were killed in a single day during the 'Black Hawk Down' raid to capture Aideed, an operation which S.S. clearly didn't directly participate in (or he'd be bragging about it). That leaves 11.

 

No, what actually occured was S.S. lost one of his guys during a training exercise before he even deployed to Somalia. Well, guess what? My nephew held his dying friend after he broke his back in an airborne exercise in Arkansas, but he doesn't feel the need to foist that experience on anyone else. The difference was, my nephew wasn't the squad leader, so he wasn't partially responsible for the death of that compatriot. Tough breaks, to be sure, but they in no way bestow upon their witnesses 'John Wayne' status over others who've been lucky enough not to have had the same experience.

 

As for his criticism of Clinton, uh, excuse me, but the military on the ground, not Clinton, fucked up the Aideed raid by killing over 500 Somalis in the process of trying to take out one guy. We were on a nation building campaign, for fuck's sake, and we wound up killing a good portion of the nation we were trying to help. The U.S. soundly lost the 'hearts and minds' of Somalis during that raid.

 

Clinton did a 180 after the raid. I believe he recognized that we were not going to be able to make good with the Somali people after our killing spree. We can argue forever whether or not continuing to pursue Aideed would have produced better results in Somalia, but considering the other warlords waiting in line for the top position, this outcome seems unlikely.

 

I've known plenty of hardcore combat vets. A climbing buddy with 3 tours special forces in Vietnam. My father's own 2 tours. I've never met one, not one, that ever wanted to talk, much less brag, about his combat experiences. One thing they all seem to share is a quiet acceptance and grace regarding the terrible things they experienced. Not a one had any notion to foist their horrific memories on anyone else.

 

Finally, as for my stint in the Navy in the late 70's early 80', even a blowhard like you, Sheaf, should be fucking glad I never saw combat, because it would have taken the form of a strategic nuclear exchange with the Soviet Union, and you wouldn't be here to regale us with stories of blood on your bootlaces.

 

And that's the point. Combat is something to be avoided. It is the end result of the worst of what our species is capable of, not something to be proud of or celebrated. It is tragic human failure, and, as such, regrettable.

Edited February 22, 2007 by tvashtarkatena

[Jim]

Several interesting articles about how well the present administration is taking care of our wounded. Shameful.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/17/AR2007021701172.html

[rbw1966]

Sheaf--

 

What unit were you with?

[Clavote]

As for your frequent need to brag to the rest of us; save it. A lot of us have served in the military here. BFD.

 

I'm interested in what capacity you have served and where. Did you want to share with us? Or can we just assume that you are the outspoken type of coward that is too much of a pansy to actually serve?

 

Please go ahead and cite all of my frequent bragging outbursts one by one.

 

You've come onto these threads and made several accusations of racism and now you want to target my credibility when it comes to matters of discussion war and death.

 

Have you ever had you BDUs spattered with blood from your fellow squad members? Have you ever had to call in a medevac and watch your battle buddy take his last breath before medical help arrived? I didn't think so.

 

 

 

You're fucking kidding right?

 

Your source is the NY SUN? People in NYC laugh at that rag.

 

So you served, so what? I did too and no one cares. Trying to justify your position by saying you served is not exactly relevant. You simply want to gain some credibility to make your shit stink nice. Transparent.

 

Yeah, I've seen shit and had shit hapen to me. So what? For purposes of your argument. Who cares. Just because you served makes you no better than anyone else or entitles you to act like you earned some special priviledge or have some secret information that trumps everything else. You are the asswipe that brought in your service record to bolster your credibility. YOU. Even with that, your actions are questionable. You drop bombs and leave like a coward. I'm sure that's why you stayed in your bunker.

 

Why don't you go sob over a beer and enjoy your Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. This is really not the place for you to get therapy.

[ivan]

This is really not the place for you to get therapy.

 

one of the wisest things i've ever heard in spray

[Clavote]

'm interested in what capacity you have served and where. Did you want to share with us? Or can we just assume that you are the outspoken type of coward that is too much of a pansy to actually serve?

 

Actually, the only military people that ever impress me, or any other people in positions of power or authority or wealth or simply any kind of accomplishment, are those that never ever feel the need to brag or proclaim their deeds or accomplishments. You, sir, strike me as someone in serious need of constant validation. As is often said 'money talks, but wealth whispers'. Seems to me serving your country is the supreme selfless act and not one you get to trot out whenever you disagree with someone's protests about your country's actions. Or did you only join the military so you could blow shit up? Met plenty of those, unfortunately.

 

You people are soliciting this sort of response. Now when you get the answer you don't like you try to shoot someone's personal credibility apart.

 

I did not serve in Iraq. But I did serve in the Mog and the blood started spilling before we even left the USA. I called in the first medevac as we unceremoniously concluded some tirehouse training and watched PV2 XXX take his last breath waiting for the blackhawk. There were several other members in my platoon which made larger sacrifices than boneheads on the internet trying to play out the acts war from their keyboards thousands of miles away.

 

Validation is key when you want to talk about any subject and claim some sort of understanding about the matter at hand. The pathetic example here was trying to suggest that I might have a problem explaining reasoning for death to family members at home. Let me tell you that I have done this. I looked the widow in the eye and could only offer a few humble words to her and the less than one year old infant son he left behind. Two days before I was busy cleaning his blood from the eyelets of my boots and recalled the entire incident over and over again. Within a few weeks we were seeing firefights and skirmishes on a daily basis. There were plenty of people that never came home from that trashpile too. I would say that it more than qualifies me to respond and tell him what a jackass he really is. So get off your trip about explaining death.

 

The only trashpile I see is the pile of idiots here that think they know about spilling blood and the families which have to deal with it.

 

 

My first hand service alone; side by side as a comrade puts me far above bottom feeders which come in here and think they can politicize me into a corner about this thing.

 

 

 

OK, you're a crackhead.

 

I know of no veteran that wants to dicuss, let alone tell a story about what happened in combat to non-combatants or even their wives. Your behaviour is suspect. Very, very suspect.

 

If you really need to re-live that episode, then you should get a shrink at the VA. This is the wrong place for you to work out your PTSD issues.

 

You are just a very distasteful person.

[lI1|1!]

the various levels of military service and how much they entitle one to tell everyone else what to do and what to think:

 

never served = stfu

served as a remf = stfu but you were warmer in the past

served and had some really hairy training exercises = you're an ok guy but stfu

served in a combat theater but never had to clean other's bodily fluids off boots = ok you're one of us but i had it worse and am subsequently wiser now

served and removed bodily fluids from boots with a simple wipe = cover me!

served and had to dig bodily fluids out of bootlace eyelets = you are all-knowing and comletely impartial, everyone should just listen to you because we are weak and fawn at your manly presence

 

 

now, what was the question?