Ed_Seedhouse Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Shit happens. Tends to happen a bit more often high on a big steep snow peak in blizzard conditions, though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Note to climbers: putting "Kevbone knows me" on your climbing resumé will automatically cause rescuers to assume you are incompetent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sobo Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 For those who are concerned about the "locater beacon" issue, you should be aware of House Bill 2509. It has been assigned to the Government Accountability and Information Technology Committee. There will be an initial public hearing on Feb 20th at 1:00 pm (That's tomorrow). Hearing Room E, Capitol, Salem. In 2005 Oregon Department of Emergency Management reported that 3.4 percent of all SAR missions were for climbers. 3 percent were for mushroom hunters. I am astounded the media has not picked up on these gripping mushroom hunter searches that also seem to be dominating OEM's time. Thanks, iain. I think it's time to post this again... ATTN: All armchair mountaineers, charge-for-rescue speculators, and MLU legislation proponents - PLEASE READ!!!1 jon/timmay- You guys care to make that link to the AAC report a sticky somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryland_moore Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Kevbone, I have been reading your stuff for a while now, but this is the first time I've ever commented directly to you. You are clearly in the same boat as these idiots who took time, resources, and placed rangers and volunteers in danger because "shit happens." They put themsleves deliberately into a situation that they could not get themselves out of and had no idea what they were doing up there. If they had, they could have simply taken a waypoint at the top of the Palmer lift and easily made it back down to Timberline. Instead they acted in a lazy manner, their judgement was clouded by something, whether it was the sunshine on Saturday or kb, who knows. But they did not take the mountain, those less experienced, seriously and those that rely on the ones who are pretending to have the experience to be up there are in jeapardy (dog included). I am sure if someone had died or was permanently injured or even the dog died, I don't think you would still be saying, "Shit happens." I am surprised you weren't up there with them.....would be quite fitting with the lack of judgement shown on behalf of these snow campers and gives even more fuel for Legislators without a clue to impose new laws on a small group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmuja Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Yep, someone should do a search and recovery cost analysis on this---> http://www.cnn.com/2007/WEATHER/02/19/winter.weather.ap/ compared to the occasional resources needed for rescuing kevbones friends.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Kevbone, I have been reading your stuff for a while now, but this is the first time I've ever commented directly to you. You are clearly in the same boat as these idiots who took time, resources, and placed rangers and volunteers in danger because "shit happens." They put themsleves deliberately into a situation that they could not get themselves out of and had no idea what they were doing up there. If they had, they could have simply taken a waypoint at the top of the Palmer lift and easily made it back down to Timberline. Instead they acted in a lazy manner, their judgement was clouded by something, whether it was the sunshine on Saturday or kb, who knows. But they did not take the mountain, those less experienced, seriously and those that rely on the ones who are pretending to have the experience to be up there are in jeapardy (dog included). I am sure if someone had died or was permanently injured or even the dog died, I don't think you would still be saying, "Shit happens." I am surprised you weren't up there with them.....would be quite fitting with the lack of judgement shown on behalf of these snow campers and gives even more fuel for Legislators without a clue to impose new laws on a small group. Ryan. You must love to speculate. I suppose we all do in some fashion or another, because that is what you are doing. You were not there any more than I was. You say “simply taken a waypoint at the top of the Palmer lift and easily made it back down to Timberline” In bad weather, nothing is “Simple”. I would not have brought a dog on Hood, but Matty is my friend and I am going to back him up to the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Kevbone, I have been reading your stuff for a while now, but this is the first time I've ever commented directly to you. You are clearly in the same boat as these idiots who took time, resources, and placed rangers and volunteers in danger because "shit happens." They put themsleves deliberately into a situation that they could not get themselves out of and had no idea what they were doing up there. If they had, they could have simply taken a waypoint at the top of the Palmer lift and easily made it back down to Timberline. Instead they acted in a lazy manner, their judgement was clouded by something, whether it was the sunshine on Saturday or kb, who knows. But they did not take the mountain, those less experienced, seriously and those that rely on the ones who are pretending to have the experience to be up there are in jeapardy (dog included). I am sure if someone had died or was permanently injured or even the dog died, I don't think you would still be saying, "Shit happens." I am surprised you weren't up there with them.....would be quite fitting with the lack of judgement shown on behalf of these snow campers and gives even more fuel for Legislators without a clue to impose new laws on a small group. Ryan. You must love to speculate. I suppose we all do in some fashion or another, because that is what you are doing. You were not there any more than I was. You say “simply taken a waypoint at the top of the Palmer lift and easily made it back down to Timberline” In bad weather, nothing is “Simple”. I would not have brought a dog on Hood, but Matty is my friend and I am going to back him up to the end. KB...if I remember correctly you yourself have admitted to having zero mountaineering experience....rock only, so is it fair to assume you know little about winter mountaineering??? That said, other than a personal connection to one of the parties, your defense should have little if any credibility here. I'm thrilled that you are finally attempting to contribute something of actual substance to this site, but I'm not sure that this is "your time". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryland_moore Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 KB, this is not based on speculation. This is based on statemnts made by your friends and from information collected from the SAR/MR folks. What is so difficult about understanding that there was a serious lapse in judgement? That is not speculation. it is fact. if they knew what they were doing, then they would not have neded up where they did. Bottom line. If you carry a GPS then use it. The batteries were fine as that is how the PMR crew found the group of five originally. Even if they forgot to get a waypoint on the way up, knowing that bad weather was coming in, and bad weather goes with white-out conditions, how hard would it be to drop down 400 ft. to take a way point from the top of the Palmer? Not hard at all. Instead they showed lack of common sense and skills necessary to be out there by trying to navigate by compass in a white-out. If they had the orienteering experience, they would have known that this is next to impossible to pull off with no fixed bearing/point to look at and use while descending. They may have been prepared with the gear, but like I said earlier, just because you have it doesn't mean it will do you a damn bit of good. In your terms, kevbone, if you bought a shiny new set of quickdraws, does that automatically make you able to properly lead a sport climb, or belay, or just because you have a shiny new rack, do you automatically know how to place gear, set anchors, or simul-climb with your partner? I'm just saying that they were obviously prepared, and maybe without the MLU, since they did not how to use the rest of their gear properly, they may still be up there. But this is not about speculating and it is clear they got in over their heads because they did not follow the most basic of mountaineering principals and did not listen to the most basic warning signs regarding weather, which they admitted, they knew about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClimbingPanther Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Ryan. You must love to speculate. I suppose we all do in some fashion or another, because that is what you are doing. You were not there any more than I was. You say “simply taken a waypoint at the top of the Palmer lift and easily made it back down to Timberline” In bad weather, nothing is “Simple”. I would not have brought a dog on Hood, but Matty is my friend and I am going to back him up to the end. Ryland is right on. That was the height (depth?) of laziness to carry GPS with you and not even use it. No matter what the weather, it would have been very simple to at least mark where they started at Timberline and points along the way to retrace steps if need be. To "back up" someone's foolishness is to validate your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 KB...if I remember correctly you yourself have admitted to having zero mountaineering experience....rock only, so is it fair to assume you know little about winter mountaineering??? That said, other than a personal connection to one of the parties, your defense should have little if any credibility here. I'm thrilled that you are finally attempting to contribute something of actual substance to this site, but I'm not sure that this is "your time". Just trying to back up my friends. I would hope, you would do the same. As for my experience. I do not have a lot of mountaineering experience. But lots of blizzard like conditions while skiing and back country skiing. I do know what bad weather is all about. Making decisions can be difficult. All and all it really does not matter what I think or you think. All that matters is nobody got killed. Including Velvet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_forester Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 speculation is tedious. glad your friends are ok, kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericb Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 KB...if I remember correctly you yourself have admitted to having zero mountaineering experience....rock only, so is it fair to assume you know little about winter mountaineering??? That said, other than a personal connection to one of the parties, your defense should have little if any credibility here. I'm thrilled that you are finally attempting to contribute something of actual substance to this site, but I'm not sure that this is "your time". Just trying to back up my friends. I would hope, you would do the same. As for my experience. I do not have a lot of mountaineering experience. But lots of blizzard like conditions while skiing and back country skiing. I do know what bad weather is all about. Making decisions can be difficult. All and all it really does not matter what I think or you think. All that matters is nobody got killed. Including Velvet! If you are trying to recapture CC.com credibility for these folks, perhaps making it clear that they are friends of yours is not the best strategy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 If you are trying to recapture CC.com credibility for these folks, perhaps making it clear that they are friends of yours is not the best strategy Now you are speculating! I forgive you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Figger_Eight Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 All I gotta say is if the law is passed, I'll be making fun of Oregon climbers. Ha ha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knewman44 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 is there any updates on the 2 men that were missing from mount hood (Hall & Nikko)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivan Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 is there any updates on the 2 men that were missing from mount hood (Hall & Nikko)? yeah, they're either in mexico or dead - mexico doesn't appear to be it though. might not be years 'till they turn up - i remember a couple of years ago two guys who went missing 20 years before on mt adams were finally found in the vicinity of the lunch counter which sees 3 billion tourists a year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clavote Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 is there any updates on the 2 men that were missing from mount hood (Hall & Nikko)? No sign. Probably part of a glacier. Could find the remains next summer or when the glacier pops them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knewman44 Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 thanks yall for the info on that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jca Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Winter mountaineering in the northwest should be approached as a "big deal", a serious undertaking. My friends and I played around a lot and experimented with clothing, gear, etc. before trying the volcanoes and other big nw peaks in winter. We made mistakes in the early going but didn't pay too heavily because the early attempts were mostly walk-downs. Later, on the higher peaks, we always had enough gear to "get by". One of our frequently stated goals was to never have our names in the press. I have been buried in an avalanche, watched my partner pull an old piton on the schwartz ledges on Robson(he survived after only a 25 foot, bouncing fall) and saw another partner fall backwards into a crevasse after jumping it. We were also a day late many times but our spouses had strict instructions to wait that extra day. We always assumed there would be no rescue except from our party. But we never believed stuff just happens. I know that almost all of the major disasters on Rainier and Hood, for example, occurred during or right after periods of heavy precipitation. When I think back about it I realize that many of the harder climbs I did were done with only one or two days notice when we realized that conditions were near perfection. If you try to pick some far off date for a nw climb, good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmuja Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 From an email exchange with my partner on the Thursday before going up Hood on Friday night/Saturday morning "Right now it looks like our only window is about 24 hrs from Friday night to Saturday night..... While on the mountain Saturday, one could look west and see the weather approaching if one cared to look. 'nough said.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 So in that picture that's been in the press of Kevbone's brilliant friend, he's wearing tele boots. Was the group that fell and got hurt trying to ski Hood? Not that it really matters, just another innacuracy in the press I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Larceny Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 It cost more than $20,000 to Clackamas and Hood River county taxpayers for this latest Mt. Hood rescue. Guess it's time to start requiring permits and fees to climb Hood to offset these numerous rescue costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevbone Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 It cost more than $20,000 to Clackamas and Hood River county taxpayers for this latest Mt. Hood rescue. Guess it's time to start requiring permits and fees to climb Hood to offset these numerous rescue costs. Last time I checked it costs over 1 millions tax paying dollars to feed and house criminals for over 10 years. Maybe it’s time to rethink the life sentence and start thinking about buying 45 cent bullet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I know the owner and the dog. Matty would not put Velvet in harms way. Ummm, you don't think bringing the dog up Hood in February when a major storm system was coming in wasn't putting the dog in danger? An accident it may have been, but falling 150' (or however far they determined it to be) down a cliff and getting stranded in a blizzard isn't putting the dog in danger? I'm sure the dog has a heart of gold. They all do. Doesn't change the fact that unfortunately the dog doesn't make it's own decisions, it relies on it's owners to keep it safe. I think the dog would have very gladly sat this one out. Especially if it had broken it's leg in that fall and had to be put down. Maybe the owners should think about that next time they want to take the dog "climbing". Hmmm ... I believe I've also seen Matty climbing Five Gallon Buckets in women's lingere. Are there judgment issues going on perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gslater Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 It cost more than $20,000 to Clackamas and Hood River county taxpayers for this latest Mt. Hood rescue. Guess it's time to start requiring permits and fees to climb Hood to offset these numerous rescue costs. Oh how I do love it when people make these sorts of statements (even in jest). Nobody in Clackamas or HR counties is going to receive any kind of special tax assessment for this rescue. They've already paid for it in their regular taxes. As a society, we assign certain responsibilities to the sheriff departments (including search & rescue), and provide a certain amount of money from taxes (not usually enough) to cover those responsibilties. I find it very interesting (and depressing/annoying) when certain people point out certain events as "costing" a department something, and then proceed to start screaming "charge them for it!!!!", just because it's something with which they're unfamiliar. Where's the outcry over all the other things that are "costing" us all something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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