Christian Climbers.

[Seahawks]

Minx, google or yahoo "near death experiences". Death isn't death. real question you should be asking is what is the truth?

[kevbone]

 

Every hear of throwing your pearls in with swine?

 

No…..but I have heard of a White Pearl Necklace.

[Seahawks]

People Have NDEs While Brain Dead

 

Dr. Michael Sabom is a cardiologist whose latest book, Light and Death, includes a detailed medical and scientific analysis of an amazing near-death experience of a woman named Pam Reynolds. She underwent a rare operation to remove a giant basilar artery aneurysm in her brain that threatened her life. The size and location of the aneurysm, however, precluded its safe removal using the standard neuro-surgical techniques. She was referred to a doctor who had pioneered a daring surgical procedure known as hypothermic cardiac arrest. It allowed Pam's aneurysm to be excised with a reasonable chance of success. This operation, nicknamed "standstill" by the doctors who perform it, required that Pam's body temperature be lowered to 60 degrees, her heartbeat and breathing stopped, her brain waves flattened, and the blood drained from her head. In everyday terms, she was put to death. After removing the aneurysm, she was restored to life. During the time that Pam was in standstill, she experienced a NDE. Her remarkably detailed veridical out-of-body observations during her surgery were later verified to be very accurate. This case is considered to be one of the strongest cases of veridical evidence in NDE research because of her ability to describe the unique surgical instruments and procedures used and her ability to describe in detail these events while she was clinically and brain dead.

 

When all of Pam's vital signs were stopped, the doctor turned on a surgical saw and began to cut through Pam's skull. While this was going on, Pam reported that she felt herself "pop" outside her body and hover above the operating table. Then she watched the doctors working on her lifeless body for awhile. From her out-of-body position, she observed the doctor sawing into her skull with what looked to her like an electric toothbrush. Pam heard and reported later what the nurses in the operating room had said and exactly what was happening during the operation. At this time, every monitor attached to Pam's body registered "no life" whatsoever. At some point, Pam's consciousness floated out of the operating room and traveled down a tunnel which had a light at the end of it where her deceased relatives and friends were waiting including her long-dead grandmother. Pam's NDE ended when her deceased uncle led her back to her body for her to reentered it. Pam compared the feeling of reentering her dead body to "plunging into a pool of ice." The following is Pam Reynolds' account of her NDE in her own words.

 

[kevbone]

Since you ask, 'Satan' is as infantile a concept as the 'tooth fairy' except of course, people don't use the 'tooth fairy' as an excuse to demonize and murder people.

 

I dont know....didnt Jeffrey Dahmer say that Santa Clause told him to do it?

[Dechristo]

the bad news is that if i'm right, you won't even get to be disappointed.

 

missing disappointment is bad news?

 

and many believers may die and be disappointed when they meet a God that then tells them how much they got wrong.

Correct. I don't believe there is any "may" to it. The salve for this is in an ever increasing and deepening understanding of the notion of grace. It is this mechanism/force I find abhorrently lacking in the adherents to the christian faith and has propelled its image to that of equal standing to any religion whose hallmark appears to be judgmental condemnation of "unbelievers".

 

It is only by the presence of grace than any of us experience a taste of heaven now, or ever.

[tvashtarkatena]

It was interesting that she was brought back from the dead by human beings. Hmmmm.

[kevbone]

Death isn't death.

 

Uh....so what is it?

 

 

[Seahawks]

Her story.

 

Pam Reynolds' NDE

 

The next thing I recall was the sound: It was a Natural "D." As I listened to the sound, I felt it was pulling me out of the top of my head. The further out of my body I got, the more clear the tone became. I had the impression it was like a road, a frequency that you go on ... I remember seeing several things in the operating room when I was looking down. It was the most aware that I think that I have ever been in my entire life ...I was metaphorically sitting on [the doctor's] shoulder. It was not like normal vision. It was brighter and more focused and clearer than normal vision ... There was so much in the operating room that I didn't recognize, and so many people.

 

I thought the way they had my head shaved was very peculiar. I expected them to take all of the hair, but they did not ...

 

The saw-thing that I hated the sound of looked like an electric toothbrush and it had a dent in it, a groove at the top where the saw appeared to go into the handle, but it didn't ... And the saw had interchangeable blades, too, but these blades were in what looked like a socket wrench case ... I heard the saw crank up. I didn't see them use it on my head, but I think I heard it being used on something. It was humming at a relatively high pitch and then all of a sudden it went Brrrrrrrrr! like that.

 

Someone said something about my veins and arteries being very small. I believe it was a female voice and that it was Dr. Murray, but I'm not sure. She was the cardiologist. I remember thinking that I should have told her about that ... I remember the heart-lung machine. I didn't like the respirator ... I remember a lot of tools and instruments that I did not readily recognize.

 

There was a sensation like being pulled, but not against your will. I was going on my own accord because I wanted to go. I have different metaphors to try to explain this. It was like the Wizard of Oz - being taken up in a tornado vortex, only you're not spinning around like you've got vertigo. You're very focused and you have a place to go. The feeling was like going up in an elevator real fast. And there was a sensation, but it wasn't a bodily, physical sensation. It was like a tunnel but it wasn't a tunnel.

 

At some point very early in the tunnel vortex I became aware of my grandmother calling me. But I didn't hear her call me with my ears ... It was a clearer hearing than with my ears. I trust that sense more than I trust my own ears.

 

The feeling was that she wanted me to come to her, so I continued with no fear down the shaft. It's a dark shaft that I went through, and at the very end there was this very little tiny pinpoint of light that kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

 

The light was incredibly bright, like sitting in the middle of a light bulb. It was so bright that I put my hands in front of my face fully expecting to see them and I could not. But I knew they were there. Not from a sense of touch. Again, it's terribly hard to explain, but I knew they were there ...

 

I noticed that as I began to discern different figures in the light - and they were all covered with light, they were light, and had light permeating all around them - they began to form shapes I could recognize and understand. I could see that one of them was my grandmother. I don't know if it was reality or a projection, but I would know my grandmother, the sound of her, anytime, anywhere.

 

Everyone I saw, looking back on it, fit perfectly into my understanding of what that person looked like at their best during their lives.

 

I recognized a lot of people. My uncle Gene was there. So was my great-great-Aunt Maggie, who was really a cousin. On Papa's side of the family, my grandfather was there ... They were specifically taking care of me, looking after me.

 

They would not permit me to go further ... It was communicated to me - that's the best way I know how to say it, because they didn't speak like I'm speaking - that if I went all the way into the light something would happen to me physically. They would be unable to put this me back into the body me, like I had gone too far and they couldn't reconnect. So they wouldn't let me go anywhere or do anything.

 

I wanted to go into the light, but I also wanted to come back. I had children to be reared. It was like watching a movie on fast-forward on your VCR: You get the general idea, but the individual freeze-frames are not slow enough to get detail.

 

Then they [deceased relatives] were feeding me. They were not doing this through my mouth, like with food, but they were nourishing me with something. The only way I know how to put it is something sparkly. Sparkles is the image that I get. I definitely recall the sensation of being nurtured and being fed and being made strong. I know it sounds funny, because obviously it wasn't a physical thing, but inside the experience I felt physically strong, ready for whatever.

 

My grandmother didn't take me back through the tunnel, or even send me back or ask me to go. She just looked up at me. I expected to go with her, but it was communicated to me that she just didn't think she would do that. My uncle said he would do it. He's the one who took me back through the end of the tunnel. Everything was fine. I did want to go.

 

But then I got to the end of it and saw the thing, my body. I didn't want to get into it ... It looked terrible, like a train wreck. It looked like what it was: dead. I believe it was covered. It scared me and I didn't want to look at it.

 

It was communicated to me that it was like jumping into a swimming pool. No problem, just jump right into the swimming pool. I didn't want to, but I guess I was late or something because he [the uncle] pushed me. I felt a definite repelling and at the same time a pulling from the body. The body was pulling and the tunnel was pushing ... It was like diving into a pool of ice water ... It hurt!

 

When I came back, they were playing Hotel California and the line was "You can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave." I mentioned [later] to Dr. Brown that that was incredibly insensitive and he told me that I needed to sleep more. [laughter] When I regained consciousness, I was still on the respirator.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes non-function of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in Pam's surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates non-function of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

 

But during "standstill", Pam's brain was found "dead" by all three clinical tests - her electroencephalogram was silent, her brain-stem response was absent, and no blood flowed through her brain. Interestingly, while in this state, she encountered the "deepest" NDE of all Atlanta Study participants.

 

Some scientists theorize that NDEs are produced by brain chemistry. But, Dr. Peter Fenwick, a neuropsychiatrist and the leading authority in Britain concerning NDEs, believes that these theories fall far short of the facts. In the documentary, "Into the Unknown: Strange But True," Dr. Fenwick describes the state of the brain during a NDE:

 

"The brain isn't functioning. It's not there. It's destroyed. It's abnormal. But, yet, it can produce these very clear experiences ... an unconscious state is when the brain ceases to function. For example, if you faint, you fall to the floor, you don't know what's happening and the brain isn't working. The memory systems are particularly sensitive to unconsciousness. So, you won't remember anything. But, yet, after one of these experiences [a NDE], you come out with clear, lucid memories ... This is a real puzzle for science. I have not yet seen any good scientific explanation which can explain that fact."

 

 

 

"The modern tradition of equating death with an ensuing nothingness can be abandoned. For there is no reason to believe that human death severs the quality of the oneness in the universe." - Larry Dossey, MD

 

 

 

[rob]

It was interesting that she was brought back from the dead by human beings. Hmmmm.

 

Doctors have been able to resurect dead dogs for a while now

zombie dogs

 

I don't remember God being involved, just science

[kevbone]

It was interesting that she was brought back from the dead by human beings. Hmmmm.

 

Doctors have been able to resurect dead dogs for a while now

zombie dogs

 

I don't remember God being involved, just science

 

You sure it wasnt Papa Smurf?

[rob]

Nature Smurf, this time your love of animals has gone too far.

[Seahawks]

People Born Blind Can

 

See During a NDE

 

Dr. Kenneth Ring's NDE Research of the Blind

 

Vicki Umipeg, a forty-five year old blind woman, was just one of the more than thirty persons that Dr. Ken Ring and Sharon Cooper interviewed at length during a two-year study just completed concerning near-death experiences of the blind. The results of their study appear in their newest book Mindsight. Vicki was born blind, her optic nerve having been completely destroyed at birth because of an excess of oxygen she received in the incubator. Yet, she appears to have been able to see during her NDE. Her story is a particularly clear instance of how NDEs of the congenitally blind can unfold in precisely the same way as do those of sighted persons. As you will see, apart from the fact that Vicki was not able to discern color during her experience, the account of her NDE is absolutely indistinguishable from those with intact visual systems. The following is an excerpt from Dr. Ring's latest book reprinted by permission.

 

Vicki told Dr. Ring she found herself floating above her body in the emergency room of a hospital following an automobile accident. She was aware of being up near the ceiling watching a male doctor and a female nurse working on her body, which she viewed from her elevated position. Vicki has a clear recollection of how she came to the realization that this was her own body below her. The following is her experience.

 

I knew it was me ... I was pretty thin then. I was quite tall and thin at that point. And I recognized at first that it was a body, but I didn't even know that it was mine initially.

 

 

Then I perceived that I was up on the ceiling, and I thought, "Well, that's kind of weird. What am I doing up here?"

 

 

I thought, "Well, this must be me. Am I dead? ..."

 

I just briefly saw this body, and ... I knew that it was mine because I wasn't in mine.

 

 

In addition, she was able to note certain further identifying features indicating that the body she was observing was certainly her own.

 

I think I was wearing the plain gold band on my right ring finger and my father's wedding ring next to it. But my wedding ring I definitely saw ... That was the one I noticed the most because it's most unusual. It has orange blossoms on the corners of it.

 

 

There is something extremely remarkable and provocative about Vicki's recollection of these visual impressions, as a subsequent comment of hers implied.

 

"This was," she said, "the only time I could ever relate to seeing and to what light was, because I experienced it."

 

 

She then told them that following her out-of-body episode, which was very fast and fleeting, she found herself going up through the ceilings of the hospital until she was above the roof of the building itself, during which time she had a brief panoramic view of her surroundings. She felt very exhilarated during this ascension and enjoyed tremendously the freedom of movement she was experiencing. She also began to hear sublimely beautiful and exquisitely harmonious music akin to the sound of wind chimes.

 

With scarcely a noticeable transition, she then discovered she had been sucked head first into a tube and felt that she was being pulled up into it. The enclosure itself was dark, Vicki said, yet she was aware that she was moving toward light. As she reached the opening of the tube, the music that she had heard earlier seemed to be transformed into hymns and she then "rolled out" to find herself lying on grass.

 

She was surrounded by trees and flowers and a vast number of people. She was in a place of tremendous light, and the light, Vicki said, was something you could feel as well as see. Even the people she saw were bright.

 

Everybody there was made of light. And I was made of light. What the light conveyed was love. There was love everywhere. It was like love came from the grass, love came from the birds, love came from the trees.

 

 

Vicki then becomes aware of specific persons she knew in life who are welcoming her to this place. There are five of them. Debby and Diane were Vicki's blind schoolmates, who had died years before, at ages 11 and 6, respectively.

 

In life, they had both been profoundly retarded as well as blind, but here they appeared bright and beautiful, healthy and vitally alive.

 

And no longer children, but, as Vicki phrased it, "in their prime."

 

In addition, Vicki reports seeing two of her childhood caretakers, a couple named Mr. and Mrs. Zilk, both of whom had also previously died. Finally, there was Vicki's grandmother - who had essentially raised Vicki and who had died just two years before this incident. In these encounters, no actual words were exchanged, Vicki says, but only feelings - feelings of love and welcome

 

[foraker]

...cut and paste religious thinking...

...cut and paste 'facts'.....

...lather rinse repeat.....

[ClimbingPanther]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the recent and as-yet unexplained recovery of heart function after 4 days stopped.

Of course nobody can say for sure what happened, just one of those things that make you go "hmmm"

[minx]

seahawks-

 

i appreciate what you see in your example. i also appreciate the impact that it may have on you. however, again, this was all controlled and dictated by human intervention. while i find it fascinating that she can so vividly describe the scene, i am no more ready to attribute it to "god" than i am to put on pointe shoes and become a prima ballerina. i certainly can't explain it but it seems likely that there is a medical explanation for it.

 

i've heard of similar tales before. while this may be a common description of people who are in fact near death, it does do anything to prove the existence of god. i would think that images of loved ones wouldn't be too surprising if one were about to die. nor does the concept of "light". i've seen that kind of thing when coming around from anasthetic and a concussion. seems like a function of disruption of normal brain activity. the desire not go into the light (or die) seems like a base animal reaction to me. that's just me, the other side of the coin if you will.

[G-spotter]

NEWS FLASH

 

Dead horse continues to be beaten after 2,007 years

 

 

In Enumclaw, that's an orgy.

[Seahawks]

seahawks-

 

i appreciate what you see in your example. i also appreciate the impact that it may have on you. however, again, this was all controlled and dictated by human intervention. while i find it fascinating that she can so vividly describe the scene, i am no more ready to attribute it to "god" than i am to put on pointe shoes and become a prima ballerina. i certainly can't explain it but it seems likely that there is a medical explanation for it.

 

i've heard of similar tales before. while this may be a common description of people who are in fact near death, it does do anything to prove the existence of god. i would think that images of loved ones wouldn't be too surprising if one were about to die. nor does the concept of "light". i've seen that kind of thing when coming around from anasthetic and a concussion. seems like a function of disruption of normal brain activity. the desire not go into the light (or die) seems like a base animal reaction to me. that's just me, the other side of the coin if you will.

 

See that what I was saying before, no matter what I say you discount it. Well you can do the research. evidence is there have fun. You call it tales. well call it what you want but it out there and medically the have no explanation and neither do you. You discounted it before I even started. It didn't matter what I said. And that why I said before I was wondering if you were being real. I got my answer, Just like I thought you weren't.

[Seahawks]

Rev. George Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a near-death experience ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in the morgue. He did not "return to life" until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy procedure. Prior to his NDE he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. Yet after the experience, he devoted himself exclusively to the study of spirituality, taking a second doctorate in the psychology of religion. He then became an ordained priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. He served as a pastor at St. Paul United Methodist Church in Baytown, Texas.

 

Rev. George Rodonaia held an M.D. and a Ph.D. in neuropathology, and a Ph.D. in the psychology of religion. He delivered a keynote address to the United Nations on the "Emerging Global Spirituality." Before emigrating to the United States from the Soviet Union in 1989, he worked as a research psychiatrist at the University of Moscow. The following is a Dr. Rodonaia's experience in his own words from Phillip Berman's excellent book, The Journey Home.

 

[foraker]

maybe she just doesn't swallow things as easily as you do?

[G-spotter]

How come hearing the voices of god or gods or devils is a symptom both of religion and of schizophrenia? Is it cause religion is a mental disorder?

[Seahawks]

maybe she just doesn't swallow things as easily as you do?

.

 

I don't need to swallow it, my Grandma had one. I don't beleive she is lieing to me so go swallow your wad.

[Dechristo]

most of the time, rational thinking wants no part in the irrational

[kevbone]

I don't need to swallow it, my Grandma had one. I don't beleive she is lieing to me so go swallow your wad.

 

What does this mean?

[Seahawks]

most of the time, rational thinking wants no part in the irrational

 

Thats why we want no part of you!

[minx]

seahawks, i don't understand where you arrive at the conclusion that i had discounted it before you even started. i interepreted the data differently than you. i took the time to read it and think about it. i did not discount it before it was presented. of course, my bias is to look for the counter explantion to "god". your bias is to take it as proof of "god". either way, i did not discount it out of hand. it simply isn't a compelling argument to me. for that, i'm sorry. i truly wish it was.

 

over many thousands of years, things we once could not understand, we have gained the knowledge to comprehend. stories like this, for me, fall into this category. it can't fully be explained...yet. it doesn't, however, present itself in a way that makes me think that there is no explanation at all.