Leashes= cheating (many say)

[ken4ord]

This thread has some funny shit in it. Pope/Dawg, you guys are so rediculous sometimes, about the only that made sense was when Pope said "It's just ice climbing." That is exactly what it is, it not aid climbing, it is ice climbing whether you are using leashes or no leashes, monos or old school rigid crampons, straight shaft or leashless tool, butt plug or no butt plug. You don't see people heading up El Cap with rack of screws and two ice tools do you? No, because most people going up there are aid climbing, not ice climbing. That is the same reason you don't see someone heading up some ice line with a wall rack. The only similarity they really share is that you are reliant on tools to ascend. The tools for both sports are quite different and constantly evolving.

 

One of the few people here who had something reasonable to say was Carolyn. I would have to agree with her. Hell Dawg if you want to go climbing ice routes with straight shaft alpine pick tool with leashes have fun, or at least I hope you do. Jens, I really hope your not climbing leashless cause all the euros are or because you think it is aid (see above about aid climbing). I don't think that is the case, I hope it because it is fun.

 

As far as leashes = cheating, I am not going to buy it for a minute. I set the rules for myself, why would I set rules that I would have to break? The next set of tools that I will buy will be leashless (that is if I ever fucking move to some place that it get cold so that I can ice climb again), but I am sure that I will keep my Cobras with Android leashes for alpine routes in the mountains.

 

Oh btw if you see me the hills ice climbing with leashes don't hell I would hate be accused of cheating, or god forbid aid climbing.

[Mark_Husbands]

a positive attitude is aid.

[pope]

Pope-I guess the list of people you are too high and noble to belay might include the likes of Steve House, Vince Anderson, Marko Prezl (sp), the late JC Lafaille and Hari Berger, Scott Decapio, Will Gadd, Raph...and on and on...

 

Nobody on your list is immune to the possible hazards of climbing with tools that are not in some way clipped in. The greatest danger is not in dropping your tool on somebody else (like your belayer) but simply losing something that you need to be mobile.

 

Anyway, here's an anecdote (courtesy of Mike Adamson) from a top-flight alpinist who should have been in your hero list.

 

Skiing is the way to get in now, too much snow for biking. We put our packs onto sleds which was a good way to go. Thought that we'd climb Whiteman Falls first but with the temps increasing 10 C by early morning it made two spooky big crack-cum-settling noises so we opted for Redman Soars, which is in good standard shape with evidence of only one previous ascent, awhile ago, this year. Crux was good with ice for tools and a couple of airy moves of feet on small rock edges. I led past the retro-fit 2 bolt anchor (not placed on the first ascent), placed a 16 cm screw in the pillar above climbed a bodylength higher and started to pull the bulge. Tried to highstep right over it, blew that crampon and

pulled outwards too much from the higher grip (bump-up position) of my new X Monster tools (and I am not blaming the tool, rather my unfamiliarity with it, first day on them) and POP, and to prove Larry Stanier right, "Even grade 1 ice is going to seem really steep if you fall on it". Because of the circuitous nature of the route, and my belayer out a bit to take pictures, I plummeted 20 feet and accordianed into the tightish rock gully below (where I suffered most of my battering). Didn't break anything but I am plenty stiff today and hobbling around on crutches with a sprained ankle.

 

Anyway, it was and amateur day (I was out with a buddy and not guiding) so I shook off the shakes and rallied, hauled up two tools (my leashless ones went to the bottom of the climb, found late on descent) and finished the climb. The hike and ski out was accomplished with the aid of 2000mg of Ibuprofen (some medical types have told me that you can get away with one big dose to reduce swelling, just as long as you aren't on it, or take more in the next 24 hrs) and my partner taking all the

weight and both sleds.

 

I'll identify a couple of factors:

 

-Complacency, I tend to climb with the minimum amount of effort -for me- my tools should have been in better than hooking. Most years I've climbed at least 40 days by now and I'm more onto my game. This year I guided in Antarctica for the last month and yesterday was my 6th day out, my guard isn't were it should have been.

 

-New tools, they are different, especially the "bump" position, doubly especially when pulling a bulge. I should have played with them more at an easier venue. They climb well, but it is hard/desperate to drive a piton with them. I think that I'll carry a third tool for piton placement in the future on trad mixed.

 

Humbling to fall on a lead that you did the first ascent of, and have climbed a half dozen times sinse ...

 

Redman Plummets

 

Barry Blanchard

[glassgowkiss]

pope, all i can say- you are one stupid fuck. end of story.

[high_on_rock]

This thread has turned in to spray and name-calling. As a newbie ice climber I am reading through to develop an answer as to the safety, usability, and technical issue differences between leashes and non. All I am getting is an argument between opinions of the ethics. Can anyone summarize the technical, safety and usability issues of the difference for us hacks that are staying out of the fray?

[Dr_Flush_Amazing]

Leashes allow you to rest on your tools more: therefore less pump and more secure. Leashes might even keep you from falling if you completely let go of your tools (I've seen this happen once). As discussed before, they make it harder to drop your tools. Obviously, dropping your tools is either bad or very very very bad depending on the situation.

 

Leashless allows you to easily shake out your hands like you would in rock climbing and then regrip: therefore less pump and more secure . Warmer hands. Leashless means no fumbly leashes to get in the way or tangled up in your other shizzle. However, most people (including myself) overgrip when using leashless tools because of fear which takes some time to overcome for maximum efficiency.

 

Choose your poison.

 

Personally, I like playing around with leashless tools on easier stuff because of the freedom and flexibility that comes with leashless. It's a more natural climbing motion. More like rock climbing. However, for steep and hard ice (for me) I want leashes because they make me feel more safe and secure.

 

If you decide to use leashes, definitely get some kind of clipper leash (BD Android or Petzl/Charlet "clipper") system - leagues better than any other slider/locker type leash in my opinion.

 

I recently did a hard ice lead (for me) and I kept my left tool clipped in, but kept my right tool unclipped which made shaking out my hand and placing ice screws (something I always do with my right hand) much easier and faster. It was nice to have the leash backing up my left hand when I was relying on that hand 100% while placing a screw with my right hand. Worked well for me.

[carolyn]

High on Rock-

 

Leashes - minimal chance of dropping a tool, which could be a big problem if you are leading or doing any multipitch climbing.

You can hang from your leashes when super pumped as a way to take a rest when you are not in a position to take a 1 or no-handed rest.

 

Leashless - More of a chance to drop a tool. Though, with practice, awareness, and care it becomes less of an issue. More opportunities to rest and shake a hand or two when pumped. You can often cover more ground with less swings due to the ability to match and bump up on the handle. More creativity in movement (for myself anyway) with being able to crossover easier and/or switch hands on your tool.

 

Combo - There are tools out there that can be used with or without leashes. On those tools you can stick the andriod leashes on, as dru mentioned at one point. That way, you can easily unclip from the leash when you want more freedom, but clip back in when you need more security. The shaft designs are not as crazy as straight leashless tools. Some allow you to add a bump above the normal grip so you can use the tool similar to ones with more ergodynamic (is that the word Im looking for?) shafts.

 

A lot of the leashless tools were designed for drytooling, mixed, and sport/competitive climbing, but soon came into the mainstream market because they were kewl looking, crazy, the euros used em? Who knows. So, at first they were either better designed for ice or rock. Most companies are trying to come up with a leashless tool that performs equally as well on rock and ice. It seems like this year they are making a step in the right direction in that regards.

 

Try out lots of different tools when you have the chance. Read some reviews, ask others what they like and dont like. Learn how to climb both with and without leashes. Then, decide for yourself.

 

Oh ya - and have fun!

 

[carolyn]

guess I was a little slow on the go there, Flush.

Either that or I just type really slow.

 

Good thoughts.

[glassgowkiss]

just friggin go and experiment on tr and see what works and what doesn't. simple.

as for poop he is the master of theory, living in the glory of the past. tell us wanker what ice routes have you done in the past 2 years?

[high_on_rock]

Thanks Flush and Carolyn, good summary.

[Raindawg]

pope, all i can say- you are one stupid fuck. end of story.

 

oooooooooo! "I know you are but what am I!"

 

just friggin go and experiment on tr and see what works and what doesn't. simple.

as for poop he is the master of theory, living in the glory of the past. tell us wanker what ice routes have you done in the past 2 years?

 

Once again, you ask for a schvantz-measuring competition as if you think that will somehow resolve any question being discussed.

Whatever...

 

 

[W]

Although the trend is certainly leashless, a number of Canmore locals aren't throwing them away entirely, either- not yet, anyway. One of my regular partners who lives up there climbs leashless on most routes, but still occasionally uses them on very steep and pumpy routes and especially in wet conditions when your grip could be compromised. Also, he likes using them on some of the longer routes, mainly because he says the security of leashes simply allows him to climb faster. The important thing ultimately is to experiment but keep it in the comfort zone, and keep your options open. I do know a few people who insist that they climb faster w/o leashes and never get pumped now, but the majority of these people climb 70+ days of ice per season and train almost incessantly. My feeling is that if you get the technique and confidence with leashless mastered, the latter assessment will hold true 90% of the time- although I can't speak from direct experience because for me it's a work in progress.

Personally, it seems likely the way my life is that I do not have enough time to devote each season to getting proficient enough with leashless that I could realistically conceive of leaving them behind on mountain routes, especially given that with my ice climbing time at a premium, I often just want to spend my time climbing the routes I've always wanted to do and not top roping and going back to school. While I'm going to press ahead learning these skills as time permits, I don't find vertical ice stale and boring enough that I need to make it much harder. But...as always, that's the wild card and what keeps the game exciting- at different points in my life I have once thought: ice, rock, big walls, the big mountain routes, those were things other people did, certainly I couldn't do those. You just never know what one small decision to try something is going to lead you to do someday.

 

In the end, let others lead you by example rather than shaming you into adopting their style. I'm more inspired to go leashless by watching my partner do the business on AI 6 terrain in the mountains sans leashes than I would be if some Frenchie comes up to me in the parking lot pointing and giggling at my leashes. "Can you believe it? Our children warm up on grade 6 ice and they've not even heard of these leashes...".

 

Get on out there and giv'er.

 

[glassgowkiss]

ok rainbitch and poop. first of all nobody learned climbing from typing on internet. most of us don't give a shit weather you climb with or without leashes. i don't think leashless is any harder or more pumpy then with leashes (using modern tools). i think it makes more sense and less of a cluster. on mixed ground it's much easier to clip and unclip the tool from your harness. as far as for using tools- big myth. the only time i dropped my tool was when i had them sitting on the ledge and a chunk of ice from above knocked it down. since then i always clip my tools or stash them behind a pillar. when i started climbing many years ago ambilical cords were a norm. when we figure things out, like now poop and others there were many people saying it will never last. it's the same with leashes. guess what? the cords are the thing of the past and nobody uses them anymore.

the reason i ask poop for his climbing resume is simple. leashless tools are rather new thing. and it looks to me like mr opinionated bastard didn't get his fingers cold in the recent season, so i take it he is speaking on the subject out of his ass

[FFCS]

9 pages! 9 pages! come on guys. Surely this isn't that important. I don't even have the time to even think about reading this, as a matter of fact why am I even...

[Jens]

Damn, this thread is getting good!

 

I will say this, If you weigh over 200lbs, you're gonna get royally schooled going leashless on steep enduro ice.

[pope]

ok rainbitch and poop. first of all nobody learned climbing from typing on internet. most of us don't give a shit weather you climb with or without leashes. i don't think leashless is any harder or more pumpy then with leashes (using modern tools). i think it makes more sense and less of a cluster. on mixed ground it's much easier to clip and unclip the tool from your harness. as far as for using tools- big myth. the only time i dropped my tool was when i had them sitting on the ledge and a chunk of ice from above knocked it down. since then i always clip my tools or stash them behind a pillar. when i started climbing many years ago ambilical cords were a norm. when we figure things out, like now poop and others there were many people saying it will never last. it's the same with leashes. guess what? the cords are the thing of the past and nobody uses them anymore.

the reason i ask poop for his climbing resume is simple. leashless tools are rather new thing. and it looks to me like mr opinionated bastard didn't get his fingers cold in the recent season, so i take it he is speaking on the subject out of his ass

 

Where do I start? First of all, I'm offering an opinion about whether using a leash on your tool is "cheating" or "aid"; I'm not dictating what I think everybody else should be doing. I think I stated it well enough...all ice climbing relies on technology to make ice climbable. Leashes are just another component of the technology, no more of a "cheat" than sticking a pick in the ice is. If you want to use leashes, spurs, a graplilng hook or a jet-pack, I really don't care, because none of these things is going to affect the experience of the next party, and the entire climb will be gone by April or May anyway.

 

I also think losing a tool is a hazard I'm not willing to risk, so I choose to use leashes. I've climbed plenty of mixed pitches with the tools dangling from my wrists. That's the way I like it. If somebody else prefers another method, have at it.

 

I have offered an opinion to which I believe I'm entitled. You don't have to like it or agree with it or even read it. You, Mr. Bob, have largely countered by calling me nasty names. Ouch. I could return the favor but it's not my style.

 

Regarding my resume, I have climbed just enough steep ice and mixed ground to have an opinion on what equipment I wish to use. I'm not an expert. You guessed correctly that I'm not terribly active in ice climbing now. It seems excessively dangerous for a father of three and my family deserves a father who isn't careless. They come first.

 

When I wasn't so obligated, I climbed plenty of dangerous cliffs. Often without a rope. Ask around and you'll find out.

 

You seem to be pretty annoyed by me. I suggest that you cease reading my comments. Or if you wish to discuss some aspect of mountaineering with me, you will need to omit all of the trash talk. I think you're capable.

 

leashless tools are rather new thing. and it looks to me like mr opinionated bastard didn't get his fingers cold in the recent season, so i take it he is speaking on the subject out of his ass

 

Actually, leashes were kind of a new thing when I started so I've climbed without them. What is somewhat new are the crazy bends and grips on tools today. No...I haven't tried them. I like to have at least one tool that can be shoved into firm snow for a self-belay. I use two straight-shaft tools, one 45cm hammer and one 55cm axe. I purchased these on the advice of a climber I know who got up Cerro Torre. Maybe you want to argue with him.

Edited January 10, 2007 by pope

[Lambone]

Damn, this thread is getting good!

 

I will say this, If you weigh over 200lbs, you're gonna get royally schooled going leashless on steep enduro ice.

 

There is definately something to be said for not getting in over your head without leashes.

 

In the years I was learning to ice climb in Hyalite, there were definately many routes where leashes very well may have saved me. I remember being completely freaked out, frozen, and freakishly pumped, stuggeling with all the might I could muster to get dull screws in the cold, brittle ice. Thinking about those routes now, without leashes I would have fallen for sure.

 

I spent a while top roping without leashes before ever getting on the sharp end without them, and ony on grades within my comfort level.

 

Obviously you don't want to fall, so be damn sure you can hang on to them tools before heading up steep ice. And remember ice allways looks mellower from the ground.

 

[edit]this post was intended for the nOObs on this forum rather then the hardmen cheastbeaters comparing resumes who already obviously know everything about climbing and how it should be done.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2007 by Lambone

[TobinJourdan]

W's post tagged it...well spoken sir.

[TBay]

excellent post by W

[MtnHigh]

Life is aid. We all look for ways to make things a bit easier on us. My choice of aid when not climbing

[Chad_A]

This thread has turned in to spray and name-calling. As a newbie ice climber I am reading through to develop an answer as to the safety, usability, and technical issue differences between leashes and non. All I am getting is an argument between opinions of the ethics. Can anyone summarize the technical, safety and usability issues of the difference for us hacks that are staying out of the fray?

 

Last year, I started my first year of ice, with Quarks and Clipper leashes. Didn't use the hand pommels, either; used strictly leashes.

 

Over the fall, I experimented with the hand pommels in the crevasses, and grew to like them alot. On toprope, I practiced, and got to know the advantages (no leash restricting the bloodflow of the hand, being able to switch hands, learning to use the leashless feature to drop my hands quickly to keep them warm, etc, etc) and quickly realized I wouldn't want to go back to leashes anytime soon.

 

After a trip to Hyalite and another to Canada, I've spent some time with a set of Ergos that I picked up cheap last spring, used. They are absolutely a joy to climb with, and the versatility is amazing. Admittedly, it helps that the tool matches my natural tendency to swing hard. It has a wonderful headweight to it; just get that weight ripping, and the tool does all the work for you.

 

I don't worry about dropping a tool, and neither do my partners (they mainly climb leashless, as well.) I'd suggest trying it and making a decision for yourself. I won't engage in a pissing match about whether it's aid climbing or not; I really don't give a shit.

[gregrehn]

 

choss dawg

 

Posts: 684

Loc: uw

 

for pure ice it is safer to climb with leashes.

_________________________

 

 

 

its even safer to play video games on the couch!

Edited January 16, 2007 by gregrehn

[Weekend_Climberz]

Dry tooling leashless is sure cool! I've been doing a lot of it this fall on my home wall. I did some at Cascade Crags before the comp.

----Although I'm not quite sold on it for WA or BC and here's why:

We have conditions that are unlike much of the rest of the continent for ice climbing. We often wallow though heavy wet slush or cascade "mashed potatoes" to get to the base of our climbs. Our climbs are often running wet big time. We are often ice climbing in 33 degree snow/ rain mixed. This means that the shafts of our ice tools are usuully soaking wet when we climb making leashless climbing often impractical. This is not as often the case for the rocky mt. states, alsaka or the Canadian rockies. The boys and girls leashless climbing there have bone dry shafts 90% of the time. (Try a timed dead hang off one tool with a wet shaft and one with a dry shaft- It will really shock you)

Another point: I will agree that leashless climbing is often better for steep bolted mixed dry tooling routes. I can count the number of such routes here in WA on one hand. And I haven't seen much more up in BC. If we were to get at a bunch more such routes, I'd be a least tempted to throw away my leashes.

 

linky

 

Hmmm....