Buckaroo Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 Found these definitions of winter on summitpost.org. was wondering what is the definition of a winter ascent in the PNW according to climbing record keeping, ie becky, mountainieers? I understand Climatological winter is average cold temps and Astronomical is by calender. What defines Meterological winter? ""Meterological Winter: December 1-February 28 (or 29). Most common definition for meteorologist and the one used by the National Weather Service (US)."" ""Climatological Winter: Varies, but in Colorado where I live, approximately Nov 21-Feb 21 or there abouts. Coldest average 1/4 of the year and the most accurate definition, but not as common since it varies region to region."" ""Astronomical winter: Northern Heisphere December 21-March 20 (or Southern Hemisphere June 21-September 20). Common only in the US and a few other countries. Not accepted in most of the world, and the least logical."" Quote
kevbone Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 What is a "Winter accent". Are you kidding? Quote
Ade Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 Winter ascents take place between the 21st Dec and 20th March. Outside these dates you can have winter conditions but it's not a winter ascent. Quote
ivan Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 Found these definitions of winter on summitpost.org. was wondering what is the definition of a winter ascent in the PNW according to climbing record keeping, ie becky, mountainieers? I understand Climatological winter is average cold temps and Astronomical is by calender. What defines Meterological winter? ""Meterological Winter: December 1-February 28 (or 29). Most common definition for meteorologist and the one used by the National Weather Service (US)."" ""Climatological Winter: Varies, but in Colorado where I live, approximately Nov 21-Feb 21 or there abouts. Coldest average 1/4 of the year and the most accurate definition, but not as common since it varies region to region."" ""Astronomical winter: Northern Heisphere December 21-March 20 (or Southern Hemisphere June 21-September 20). Common only in the US and a few other countries. Not accepted in most of the world, and the least logical."" so.... FMWA FCWA FAWA Quote
kevbone Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 Winter ascents take place between the 21st Dec and 20th March. Outside these dates you can have winter conditions but it's not a winter ascent. Why, just because the calendar says so? I would think if its Dec 20th and its 0 degrees and snowing crazy. Its a winter accent. I could be wrong though. Quote
Dr_Flush_Amazing Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 A winter ascent is something that climbers like to argue about. It's also the one having the least fun. Quote
kevbone Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 A winter ascent is something that climbers like to argue about. It's also the one having the least fun. That is funny! And I will admit, a little on the whitty side. Quote
Gary_Yngve Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 For folks concerned about stats, FWA needs to be defined formally. For folks who just wanna climb, they can have a wintry ascent whenever they feel it so. Quote
G-spotter Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 In North America a "winter ascent" is made in calendar winter only. Even if the conditions are summery, like when Wayne and Lane climbed Yak Check. In Scotland a "winter ascent" is any ascent made under "winter conditions" - below freezing, snow covering the rock and turf frozen. Even if it's made in October or May. Conversely many North American winter climbs would not be counted as winter ascents in scotland - especially anything where you are drytooling on bare rock as opposed to hoarfrosted or snowcovered rock, even if it's -20C outside. The claim of December 1 to February 28 is bullshit. Quote
archenemy Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 In North America a "winter ascent" is made in calendar winter only. Even if the conditions are summery, like when Wayne and Lane climbed Yak Check. In Scotland a "winter ascent" is any ascent made under "winter conditions" - below freezing, snow covering the rock and turf frozen. Even if it's made in October or May. Conversely many North American winter climbs would not be counted as winter ascents in scotland - especially anything where you are drytooling on bare rock as opposed to hoarfrosted or snowcovered rock, even if it's -20C outside. The claim of December 1 to February 28 is bullshit. Especially during a leap year. I think the winter conditions makes more sense than anything else. Why was that not adopted in No Amer? Quote
G-spotter Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 Maybe because we are climbing mountains... the Scottish definition only makes sense if you are looking for an excuse to take your crampons and ice axes to work on a classic summer rockclimb. The North American definition is used in the Alps too. And the Himalaya. When Lafaille tried to claim a winter ascent of an 8000er last year after climbing it on Dec 3, the Polish team also attempting the route was quick to point out that he was cheating. Quote
Alasdair Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 Winter ascents take place between the 21st Dec and 20th March. Outside these dates you can have winter conditions but it's not a winter ascent. Why, just because the calendar says so? I would think if its Dec 20th and its 0 degrees and snowing crazy. Its a winter accent. I could be wrong though. Yep you are infact wrong. Quote
Mr_Phil Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 The last time I climbed Rainier, it was snowing like crazy. In July. Does that count as a winter ascent? Quote
ketch Posted January 2, 2007 Posted January 2, 2007 I tend to agree with Gary most of all. For those who are inclined to keep records it needs to be defined. On the other hand a couple years back I made a mad dash around as conditions were perfect to grab a winter accent of the Becky route. Blue bird day great time had by all. Heck if it was a freak year and I had a chance to do a first summer accent of Oregon Jack for instance I'd be all over that too. Who knows if we keep screwing with the weather all kinds of "firsts" might be in the making. Quote
kevbone Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 The last time I climbed Rainier, it was snowing like crazy. In July. Does that count as a winter ascent? What do you think? Quote
Ade Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 Maybe because we are climbing mountains... the Scottish definition only makes sense if you are looking for an excuse to take your crampons and ice axes to work on a classic summer rockclimb. The North American definition is used in the Alps too. And the Himalaya. When Lafaille tried to claim a winter ascent of an 8000er last year after climbing it on Dec 3, the Polish team also attempting the route was quick to point out that he was cheating. Correct - Scotland is the odd one out here. Quote
dbconlin Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 I have always understood 'winter' to be Dec. 21 - March 20. However, this definition lacks appeal for obvious reasons. I am not one to get too hung up on this sort of thing, but the Meteorological definition seems to be a good compromise between the somewhat arbitrary Astronomical winter and the impractical Climatological definition. Let the revolution begin... Quote
chris Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 I have always understood "Winter" to be the season from winter solstice to spring equinox, roughly the 21 Dec-20 Mar dates mentioned, regardless of the temperatures or conditions. The AAJ does not define it in its submission guidelines. Spring - from spring equinox to summer solstice Summer - from summer solstice to fall equinox Fall - from fall equinox to winter solstice. Quote
joblo7 Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 seasonal winter in the country you're in . i would say. what does the rule book say. ? for record keeping. Quote
Ade Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 (edited) Winter ascents take place between the 21st Dec and 20th March. Outside these dates you can have winter conditions but it's not a winter ascent. There are no rules. Go out and climb and have fun but for the purposes of recording ascents if it's outside those dates generally, except where otherwise noted (e.g. Scotland), it's an ascent done in winter conditions not a winter ascent. Edited January 3, 2007 by Ade Quote
ivan Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 ah yes, the annual discussion of "what constitutes a winter ascent" - like the birds making their majestic migration or homeless folks get'n rousted from the park, a true bellweather for the times Quote
curtveld Posted January 3, 2007 Posted January 3, 2007 OK, so equinox-to-solstice is “winter” on the calendar, but I’m with Dconlin that it doesn’t make complete sense. Tell me why March 15th is on average more wintry than December 15th? From the standpoint of the shortest days and lowest sunlight, the solstice should center on, not begin winter. Apparently this "cross-quarter” based winter was used in some ancient calendars – any historians or astronomers out there know why it got dropped? Maybe climbers should revive it... Quote
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