best of cc.com Mt. Hood events speculation

[Seahawks]

what is pretty good is how someone got my title like that. Congrats to that person becuase I can't figure how to change it for two days. Dam funny.

 

guess what, even the admins think you have nothing good to say, not just me.

 

and if you want a nail for this thread, here- "thread nailed closed"

 

you can't post anymore or you will be lost in the mountains with only a cell phone which you will neglect to use and freeze to death, it is the laws of posting.

 

God knows your the say all on whos got anything good to say. Wow admins did that. Thats pretty amazing. They must think they are God too and can judge everyone. You guys can knock the cell phones all you want but just rememeber we were 400ft from were they found him.

[Seahawks]

Nice new thread Kevboner. Liked it. numnut. They should change your name to Numnut just for doing that

Edited December 29, 2006 by Seahawks

[joblo7]

THE LAST WORD?

[Molly1]

THE LAST WORD?

 

Just came back to pay my tribute to a few good men, here, and, of course, to Sam Coleridge. Thanks for reminding me.

 

 

But thou, my babe ! shalt wander like a breeze

By lakes and sandy shores, beneath the crags

 

Of ancient mountain, and beneath the clouds,

Which image in their bulk both lakes and shores

And mountain crags : so shalt thou see and hear

 

 

The lovely shapes and sounds intelligible

Of that eternal language, which thy God

Utters, who from eternity doth teach

Himself in all, and all things in himself.

Great universal Teacher ! he shall mould

Thy spirit, and by giving make it ask.

 

Therefore all seasons shall be sweet to thee,

 

Whether the summer clothe the general earth

With greenness, or the redbreast sit and sing

Betwixt the tufts of snow on the bare branch

Of mossy apple-tree, while the nigh thatch

Smokes in the sun-thaw ; whether the eave-drops fall

Heard only in the trances of the blast,

 

Or if the secret ministry of frost

Shall hang them up in silent icicles,

 

Quietly shining to the quiet Moon.

[tvashtarkatena]

Nice new thread Kevboner. Liked it. numnut. They should change your name to Numnut just for doing that

 

Numnut of the North?

[Clavote]

THE LAST WORD?

 

Just came back to pay my tribute to a few good men, here, and, of course, to Sam Coleridge. Thanks for reminding me.

 

 

But thou, my babe ! shalt wander like a breeze

By lakes and sandy shores, beneath the crags

 

Of ancient mountain, and beneath the clouds,

Which image in their bulk both lakes and shores

And mountain crags : so shalt thou see and hear

 

 

The lovely shapes and sounds intelligible

Of that eternal language, which thy God

Utters, who from eternity doth teach

Himself in all, and all things in himself.

Great universal Teacher ! he shall mould

Thy spirit, and by giving make it ask.

 

Therefore all seasons shall be sweet to thee,

 

Whether the summer clothe the general earth

With greenness, or the redbreast sit and sing

Betwixt the tufts of snow on the bare branch

Of mossy apple-tree, while the nigh thatch

Smokes in the sun-thaw ; whether the eave-drops fall

Heard only in the trances of the blast,

 

Or if the secret ministry of frost

Shall hang them up in silent icicles,

 

Quietly shining to the quiet Moon.

 

 

Molly,

 

you're back! Thank god because I am in a situation here that can use your horsey, sailing and armchair expertise.

 

Here's my sitation:

 

I'm high up on my couch, the remote batteries are running low and I may be stuck on fucks network all night. I'm on my last beer. The sun is dipping low in the horizon and the wind outside is whipping up.

I can expect the temperature high on this couch to drop to uncomfortably low temps as soon as the sun drops below the horizon. I lost my insulation layers last night by the door where I dropped them. I am unable to reach the heater...I'm just lazy.

As you can see, this situation is threatening to make my New Years evening slightly uncomfortable, if not sober.

 

I do have a cell phone and the batteries are also running low.

 

So here is my question. Should I use the cell phone now while I still have beer and the stores are still open to call my buddy and ask him to launch a SAR action to get me more beer OR should I just fire up the ganja becon device and wait for help (or daylight) and conserve my cell battery so I can call for a pizza when I get the munchies?

 

Which do you think is the better life preservation strategy?

 

Oh, and Molly, it still says you're a ghoul? Any luck getting the moderators to change that? And the poem is really sucks.

 

 

[Choada_Boy]

THE LAST WORD?

 

Just came back to pay my tribute to a few good men, here, and, of course, to Sam Coleridge. Thanks for reminding me.

 

 

But thou, my babe ! shalt wander like a breeze

By lakes and sandy shores, beneath the crags

 

Of ancient mountain, and beneath the clouds,

Which image in their bulk both lakes and shores

And mountain crags : so shalt thou see and hear

 

 

The lovely shapes and sounds intelligible

Of that eternal language, which thy God

Utters, who from eternity doth teach

Himself in all, and all things in himself.

Great universal Teacher ! he shall mould

Thy spirit, and by giving make it ask.

 

Therefore all seasons shall be sweet to thee,

 

Whether the summer clothe the general earth

With greenness, or the redbreast sit and sing

Betwixt the tufts of snow on the bare branch

Of mossy apple-tree, while the nigh thatch

Smokes in the sun-thaw ; whether the eave-drops fall

Heard only in the trances of the blast,

 

Or if the secret ministry of frost

Shall hang them up in silent icicles,

 

Quietly shining to the quiet Moon.

 

How about a Haiku:

 

I'm taking a shit.

It curls on top of your head.

Once again, you lose.

[kevbone]

Oh, and Molly, it still says you're a ghoul? Any luck getting the moderators to change that?

 

When your posts go up, your name changes.

[Dechristo]

Molly's quote of Coleridge

 

[Bill Slugg]

At the risk of elevating the level of discussion to that of rank speculation, and having read this thread and reviewed the media coverage I offer the following assessment of their mistakes:

 

- They had no experience on Mt. Hood. In itself, not necessarily a problem, but they were unable to find the Pearly Gates in a high wind/whiteout/severe rime ice situation.

 

- Their food/fuel/clothing did not seem to match the severity of the weather forecast.

 

- They split up.

 

Comments?

 

 

 

[joblo7]

they went climbing! you speculatin' slug.

[Bill Slugg]

Are you saying that since they went climbing - they died? Was it God's will? I've gone climbing and I haven't died. Maybe they made some mistakes from which we can learn. I prefer to think that one's chances of returning are linked to knowledge and practice.

[G-spotter]

I've gone climbing and I haven't died.

 

You will.

[joblo7]

. I prefer to think that one's chances of returning are linked to knowledge and practice.

 

 

you're romantically correct but God and the mountain dont GAF what you think....

[archenemy]

I return when I remember to print the "reverse directions" from mapquest.

[joblo7]

better still get one of them 9" dashboard gps thang.

[archenemy]

Why aren't these people getting the scrutiny that the Hood climbers were getting?

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/07/01/01/100wir_a3planes001.cfm

 

[Buckaroo]

Just wanted to throw two cents on this one and since the other threads on it are locked, looks like it's going to have to be in spray. Should wait until the SAR report, but want to go into more detail anyway.

 

Accidents are usually a result of a combination of factors. This one looked to be weather, physical condition of climber/climbers (age?) and lack of (for whatever reason) adequate gear/supplies. Also some possible complacency or underestimating Hood in winter.

 

They sort of took their time on the approach which may have pushed them to the point where there was no time margin with the incoming weather. Maybe because of Kelly's age. It seems like he was overextended after the summit. He may have also been affected by altitude. This happens sometimes with people who climb in somewhere like Colorado. They are used to going to 14K' from a 7K' valley, which is only a 7K' gain. Whereas with Hood you are starting from near sea level and going to 11K'. It's not the peak altitude gained but the difference from base to summit. Not enough acclimatization. And altitude affects you at random, sometimes it will hit you and sometimes it won't, so you may have gotten away with it before but not this time. Add winter on top of that, colder takes more energy and makes it harder to breathe.

 

Why did they not have adequate gear? No matter how fast they were they should have had minimum, at least one stove, one bivy sack and one pad between the 3 of them, and one insulated jacket per climber. If they didn't start out with this that was inadequate planning. Maybe they had this stuff and it got lost or dropped in the storm or from cognitive loss due to altitude or hypothermia. But this is questionable since two of them were still on their feet and tried to descend, you think they would have held onto a stove if they had one and just stayed in a snowcave and waited it out. Kelly was found without an insulating jacket. Again if one wasn't taken it's an oversight, most likely he had one and it was lost due to altitude sickness or hypothermia.

 

Kelly made it up but was too tired or incapacitated to climb back down the hard way. They didn't have enough info to find the easy descent, either compass bearings or GPS waypoints and the weather made it even harder, due to low visibility. If they had had a stove they should have just waited out the storm. Instead the two who were mobile decided to go for help to save their buddy, knowing he was on the edge without water. The weather was too bad for a descent back down the hard way but they tried anyway. A pair of ice tools aren't "left behind", the two climbers most likely fell.

 

The age difference and subsequent physical condition can sometimes be a problem. The older person not wanting to hold the group back goes past his comfort zone. The cell phone is an issue too although it probably wouldn't have helped in this case.. Digital is ok but analog capable is mandatory because of wider coverage, and a ziplock freezer bag to keep it dry. I can see going solo without a phone but with 3 people it's mandatory. And even solo it's nice to be able to call just to say your hunkered in a snow cave and going past your return time. On most of the volcanoes though they only work up high due to coverage. If you don't take it for yourself take it for those who care about you or who may have to rescue you. Even the best climbers can have an accident.

 

Snowcave technique is important also. The huge opening in "Freedom of the Hills" is wrong, too much heat escapes. A survival cave has two small holes per person, especially if there's no sleeping bag. This is tricky with blowing snow, someone has to stay awake to make sure the vents stay clear.

 

Complacency. Even the best climbers can drop their guard at times. Look at John Middendorf when he got stuck on Half Dome. Assuming because you made it ok so many times before you'll be ok with less this one time.

 

The volcanoes in winter. Yes you've been on Denali but Hood in winter has very high snow rates and the wind combined with temps are enough to force you to dig in just the same. If you're not prepared to sit it out you're in trouble. It's like ducks in a row or links in a chain, know the easy descent for certain, carry the minimum gear and don't lose it, important in summer but multiplied in winter.

 

Climbing is a game to hone the knife edge of the gene pool, you play to do just that. The stakes have to be high or it doesn't work. But there's no reason you can't stack the deck in your favor by learning from other's experiences.

 

[joblo7]

unidentified i guess. fowler/boskoff was strangely ignored by mas med. also.

[joblo7]

stack the deck in your favor by learning from other's experiences.

 

 

you're speculating on your own inexperienced speculation. not very useful...get facts.

[Dechristo]

Quite coincidentally, I noticed a "Brian Hall" listed as one of the climbers in the credits at the end of the 2004 film "Dragon's World: A Fantasy Made Real" filmed in the Alps.

 

 

 

[pink]

stack the deck in your favor by learning from other's experiences.

 

 

your speculating on you own inexperienced speculation. not very useful...get facts.

 

 

virenda7, did your mom stroke your hair and tell you things that you like to hear a little to often.

[Buckaroo]

I'm sorry. Maybe it is ghoulish to speculate. The children of plenty must search to find things of interest in their desensitized state. I've always loved climbing and don't get to do it that much being a slave to the grind. Not doing it that much means not concentrating on it enough to stay really safe. Maybe just like these guys, weekend warriors. There but for the grace of God or whatever/whoever go I.

 

Analyzing someone else's *possible* mistakes is not valid? If we'll never know for sure why not try to analyze all the possibilities?

 

Tell us then with your experience since I don't have "any", what was your gear list on Shishapangma sw face? Is that the Doug Scott route?

[joblo7]

its hard to speculate unless you know the basic facts about the climbers and the climb and climbing in general.

we all tried to understand what happened for our own growth.

 

that was scott's route. very very cool. we brought enough to spend 4 nites out on a proposed 2 day climb.alpine style.

the best thing we had was great acclimatisation.fitness, light high end gear.

[carolyn]

Are you saying that since they went climbing - they died? Was it God's will? I've gone climbing and I haven't died. Maybe they made some mistakes from which we can learn. I prefer to think that one's chances of returning are linked to knowledge and practice.

 

When its time for you to move on, its time. Doesnt matter what you do, where you go, how much you know, or how much you have. Dying doesnt have to be such a bad thing. In buddhism, for example, the moment you die could mean that was the moment you eliminated all of your negative karma (or at least as much as you can in this lifetime). In christianity, isnt dying sometimes related to being "called home" for another purpose? When you look at it that way, death can actually be seen as a good thing. Its the attachment one has to this life and the desire to control it's longevity that is makes death appear as something 'bad' or 'wrong'.

 

We live and we die. Thats the way it goes. When your time is up, maybe it will be in the mountains. Maybe it will be crossing the street. Do you want a bunch of strangers disecting the way you crossed the street and shaming you for not stopping to tie your shoe first? Heck, had you done that then the car that hit you would have already passed when you started crossing. Maybe if you hadnt hit your snooze two times before finally getting up you wouldnt have crossed paths with the semi which blew the red light and hit you head on.

 

Its not that I dont think there is anything to learn from what happened in this accident, or any other. I think what we learn, however, is personal - what makes sense to each person individually. Lets not forget, without the facts we are only guessing/speculating. In my opinion, speculating and obsessing over something like this is dangerous. Why? Because you wind up thinking about what you COULD/SHOULD be doing rather than what you ARE doing. Thats a sure set up for an accident, whether it be cooking a meal, driving, climbing, or walking down the street.

 

We all do the best we can in every situation - period.

When the facts come out, take what you can use and leave the rest.

In the meantime, the best way to honor them (and yourself) is to get out there and keep doing the best you can.

 

I cant believe once this moved into spray people are still being so critical and insistent on answers. I also cant believe I just spent time being serious in this thread.

 

It is what it is - and thats what it is, damn it!