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Molly1

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Everything posted by Molly1

  1. Just came back to pay my tribute to a few good men, here, and, of course, to Sam Coleridge. Thanks for reminding me. But thou, my babe ! shalt wander like a breeze By lakes and sandy shores, beneath the crags Of ancient mountain, and beneath the clouds, Which image in their bulk both lakes and shores And mountain crags : so shalt thou see and hear The lovely shapes and sounds intelligible Of that eternal language, which thy God Utters, who from eternity doth teach Himself in all, and all things in himself. Great universal Teacher ! he shall mould Thy spirit, and by giving make it ask. Therefore all seasons shall be sweet to thee, Whether the summer clothe the general earth With greenness, or the redbreast sit and sing Betwixt the tufts of snow on the bare branch Of mossy apple-tree, while the nigh thatch Smokes in the sun-thaw ; whether the eave-drops fall Heard only in the trances of the blast, Or if the secret ministry of frost Shall hang them up in silent icicles, Quietly shining to the quiet Moon.
  2. God has his way of bringing everyone to humility, eventually. So I've learned once again on this thread not to worry about the welfare of others, especially those who would just as soon spit at you as look at you. Therefore, keep on keeping on, let sin increase and let grace increase, because sooner or later, no matter how arrogant, you will meet the rock who breaks you. And, only then, can he start his work.
  3. They left Friday morning for a day climb and no call came in until Sunday afternoon. They were not prepared or expecting to spend that much time up there. So why did the call come in so late? It's a question worth asking.
  4. Here are some samples of analysis of accidents. You will see that they are most often caused by multiple factors combining to a seemingly inevitable event, climber error, poor judgment, and failure to have backup systems. "Although no rescue was required, this type of incident is becoming more common with the increase in popularity of ice climbing. Underestimating the time required to complete the climb, not retreating, having inadequate equipment, and fatigue all combined to result in a potentially serious incident. "(Source: Parks Canada Warden Service) "Although the climber was experienced, he did not research the mountain adequately, and so became stymied when bad weather prevented him from seeing where to go. Had he known about the A-A Col descent route, or the correct line of the standard route, he might have gotten down on his own and in good time, even in bad weather. In any case, soloing on a glacier is hazardous. Many people have fallen into deep crevasses on Mount Athabasca. "(Source: Parks Canada Warden Service) "Hoshino overextended himself. His climbing partners failed to recognize the situation and react to it. Instead they elected to go to the summit. They were also improperly prepared to bivouac, which caused Hoshino to become hypothermic while waiting for a rescue." (Source: Kevin Moore, Mountaineering Ranger) http://www.americanalpineclub.org/pages/page/73#u7
  5. Molly, While working on Mt. Rainier 11 years ago, two friends who were climbing rangers died on a SAR. I was hired to replace them and finish out the season. My first day on the job, I talked with all the climbers at the high camp. Every one of them was very much aware of the accident a week earlier, and that the route conditions were treacherous. Every one. My second day, I watched three of the same people I spoke with the day before, who appeared exceedingly cognicent of the conditions, take a 2500 foot, cartwheeling fall down the route. Two died, one barely survived. I've had numerous friends die climbing in the years since, most recently last spring in Alaska. Each and every of them were more than aware of the risks of this life and in climbing. So your patently false and ill informed judgments are not appreciated in the slightest and are amazingly disrespectful. wow. I don't know what to say about that. The people who were falling in the reports I read were just random climbers, not experts. And, the reports seem to indicate the reason for the fall was the equivalent of 'pilot error.' So, I'm not trying to be disrepectful. I had no idea the SAR people could be at that kind of risk that so many of them could die.
  6. If I was an informed person, I wouldn't need to be here asking questions. You said my post about slipping and falling off the top was funny. But, this actually happened to more than one person in the reports I was reading. One misguided slip, because you walk on a particular place off the trail, or you are not using your ice axe, or you have on crampons that are balling up, or you misjudge the hardness or softness of the snow, and boom--you're dead. That's not funny at all. That is a totally unforgiving situation that is a matter of life or death. Now, obviously, the people this happened to had no idea it could happen to them, or it wouldn't have happened.
  7. When you're car is skidding sideways out of control, are you actively analyzing the situation? Or are you acting instinctively and going with the flow? Are you actions to avoid a horrific crash based on a premade "plan"? Your statement is a fear based approach, you strive to control the uncontrollable. Your mindset preparation leaves no room whatsoever for encountering a foreign situation- you can plan all you want for every contingincy- so what happens if the forecast calls for 4 days of sun and the storm of the century arrives on day 2? Lay down and die? Or learn as you go? Yes, sliding on ice and snow in a car is a great example. You can be told which way to turn the wheel to get out of that kind of a skid way in advance of it ever happening. And the direction is counter intuitive. I realize absolutely there is a lot of learn as you go and just plain dumb luck in these kinds of sports. But, this particular sport is so unforgiving of any tiny mistake that I think it requires a lot more education and training than is commonly portrayed. Let me ask you this: if these folks had hired a mountain guide, would he have allowed them to leave when they did, carrying the supplies they carried? Maybe so, but then he would have been able to find the pearly gates on a dark night in a whiteout, too. Someone very familiar with that mountain would have had an extra backup system by definition.
  8. Another thing I don't understand is why you would ever climb a difficult mountain with a partner that you don't really know and have never climbed with before. Seems to me that a climbing partner would be as important to your safety as any piece of knowledge or equipment you could own. From my reading here, people just seem to be willing to go up a mountain with total strangers. Just another warm body. As if it made no difference.
  9. Why don't you just tell me what I'm missing about the situation, then? I came here to be educated, not insulted. The powers that be put 'ghoul' under my name, because no one is allowed to question anything a climber does here, I guess. But, all of it is open to question, and it will be questioned by people who know a lot more than I do. Because I'm not the only one interested in safety in this world.
  10. I dont think so. well you might think so if you had ever been on a sailboat in fog and foul weather and navigating by dead reckoning. Or if you had ever been on a horse which is bolting from an attack dog. When these bad situations happen, it's too late to figure out what to do. You have to know before they happen what to do.
  11. Yes, I think you're right. People get cold and tired, and then things happen. That's why preparation and planning are so important, I would say. You want to have the decision tree already in place so the answer to a question is always 'intuitive.' And, exceeding your limits in a dangerous environment can turn deadly, right? No I don't climb. I hike and ski and ride horses and sail. But the principles are all the same.
  12. Instinctual perception- grounded in fact. Neither quantifiable nor proprietary to anyone. It is within reach for everyone. Analysis is a tool of the ego. What is more arrogant than attempting to define the unknowable? But, some things are knowable. The weather coming in, for one. The small window of good weather they allowed themselves for another. The small window to survive the bad weather if necessary for another. The lack of gps systems, etc, to navigate in a whiteout, or to provide a location for authorities. Are these things intuitive? Or just common sense? I noticed that the smaller cave had a sleeping bag of sorts in it, left behind. Whereas the bigger cave had no sleeping bag. Apparently.
  13. What does it have to do with, then? Is intuition something you are born with and that cannot be analyzed or measured? I think when people make decisions a lot of things come into play that they are not even aware of. It could be something as simple as arrogance, as one said, or an unwillingless to look the fool. But, I'm never afraid to look foolish.
  14. "intuition" ..now that's an interesting word. What is 'intuition'? Isn't it just a good combination of skill, knowledge, and intelligence? Speaking of 'intuition', I noticed that these climbers left behind 3 notes or so relating to their planned route and back up route. Is that normal? Or was it 'intuition'?
  15. Naw...I don't even do this sport and I'm more interested in analyzing how to stay safe than most of the people who do it, if this thread is any indication. So what does that tell you? Anyway, I've probably been higher in the mountains than most people here, since I've been in the Alps.
  16. This has only been going on for like, 15 or 20 years... I wonder if it is getting more common now for some who perceive it as just another vacation and don't perceive the risk. There were a lot of climbers in this series, (according to the mountain guide) who were putting others at risk just by being there. There were actually waiting lines at the top, of more than an hour, while better climbers cooled their heels in minus 40F, waiting for less skilled climbers to negotiate a difficult passage. I've also noticed from my recent readings, that the fatal accidents seem to tend to happen more on the descent. Not sure why that is.
  17. I've watched the series, "Everest," on national geographic, and it struck me how many people are now climbing that mountain that have no business on it. They would never have a chance of making it to the top without the Sherpas, who carry the food and supplies and oxygen, set up the camps, cook the food, set the lines, and sometimes carry the climbers. And, even with all this help, 1 in 6 of them never make it off the mountain alive according to one statistic I read.
  18. No I don't think there should be any regulations against it, and I am all in favor of the type of all out rescue that occurred in this instance. We have people who are trained and capable of doing this type of rescue and they volunteer to do it. I think people should be allowed to do what they want to do. I'm just concerned that they perceive the risks accurately and the amount of skill required to minimize that risk. I'm just saying I had no idea how dangerous this sport is, how much skill is required, and, as another said, how difficult to make the judgment when to hold them and when to fold them. It is so difficult, even in the best of circumstances, to assess your limits and ask for help, or turn back, --even when a failure to do so might not be fatal. Sometimes staying safe is more about prudence than courage.
  19. I've been reading some more and I've discovered that these 'accidents' on top of mountains are not all that uncommon. People can just slip and fall, and if they cannot break their fall with an ice axe, they can fall hundreds of feet to their death. Sometimes if they are roped they can pull others down with them. Looking at these reports, it seems that a great deal of skill is really required to mess around on the steep inclines at the tops of these mountains, including knowing how to discern between different types of snow (which can change in a heart beat when the sun comes up), knowing what gear to use, knowing how to stop a free fall with an ice axe before too much speed builds up, not to mention all the technical knowledge required to climb rockface and ice. Needless to say, I've vowed never to venture to a place where trees refuse to grow. I'm sure you will all be happy to hear that. I am awed by how dangerous this sport really is, even though people don't seem to generally acknowledge that. And, I have come to appreciate the onerous sign taken by the sheriff that two ice axes were left behind on a steep slope. If I were ever going to take on such an endeavor on an unknown mountain, I would hire someone who grew up climbing it and who had a lot of skill and local knowledge to accompany me.
  20. Oh I've been in all sorts of life threatening situations, some that made my hair curl (it used to be straight). But, I do know this much, it is never just one thing that goes wrong, it is always multiple things converging to what looks like an inevitable conclusion. Thus, my philosophy is to always have a multiple back up system now, or, if you want to call it that, decision tree. But like you said, we do have to accept what we can't change. I suspect their worse case scenario was having to spend the night in one of the huts higher up on the mountain, then coming down the next day. But, they couldn't find their way there for whatever reason.
  21. I think it depends on whether you think the big snow cave was dug by one or three. Yet, I can't help but think there was only one accident, which claimed two of them, and then the third returned to the cave. Otherwise, you would need two accidents, and I think that is unlikely. Knowing little about climbing but more about human nature, I really don't think his brothers would abandon him to what would be almost certain death in that cave without proper clothing or supplies. There was no sleeping bag, no warm jacket according to one report. They were planning on a day trip. And, the sheriff said, always plan on three days up there. In this case, it was more like 10. There was a cell phone, yet no one calls for help until there is only one.
  22. I have actually been on Chamonix--skiing, so I took the gondola up--and I suppose it was beautiful, but it was very high and I don't like heights. Plus, the gondola stopped half way up, and the phone rang, and everyone started talking rapidly in French. We swayed in the wind for an hour while they fixed something, not my cup of tea. I like the short and cozy mountains of Vermont. I read somewhere that Kelly was in training for Everest, a dream of his. That also might have been a factor in their 'rapid ascent' decision--as a training exercise. No one is saying anything was 'irresponsible.' That's your own projection. We're just asking questions. Thanks for your answers, Steve.
  23. well, you know, this thread has gotten 5000 hits in one day. There are a lot of people out there who want to know what happened, and want to try to understand more about the details. You guys might not have any idea yourselves, but at the very least, you are ambassadors for your sport, spray thread or not. You are giving the world right now a picture of what climbers are like. And, everyone of us here did pay our two cents of tax dollars to rescue these guys and we were happy to do it and we would do it for you, too. 2Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.--Hebrews 13
  24. let me say this for ya REAL SLOW LIKE.... NO ONE CAN KNOW WHAT HAPPENED UP THERE BECAUSE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO KNOW ARE DEAD. PERIOD. if you are truly interested in what the experts have to say, check out the '06 alpine accident journal thinger when it comes out. they will compile all of the pertinent information, with all the info from all the experts and then we will know the best guess from the information available. until then there is no way to know. it will take them months to sort it out. I am sure the sheriff has some idea because he suspended the ground search. He thinks an accident happened, I guess. He's basing this on something that was seen up there. But his assumption of a broken or hurt arm is not supported by the medical evidence. I notice pictures of guys walking around on the cooper spur using ski poles. Did these climbers have ski poles? Would they need them to get down that route? I've also seen pictures of the steep drop over the gullies. Why would you attempt that route in harsh weather, high winds and low visibility? Would they have known how long the storm was going to last?
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