BOLTED CRACK!!

[chris]

e-ass, gives me a great idea to pitch to apple, for the i-sit (or i-shit), a mp3 playing toilet!

 

either way, even if it is a ledge, how could it possibly justify bolts within two feet of each other! don't be silly mtnfreak, i am not making fun of you, but i will play along. your feeling are probably hurt because it was you who bolted it, and you were real scared up there on the ledge and want two bolts for protectiion at the belay, not rap bolts mind you.

 

Yeah, I was feeling pretty clever with that "e-ass" and "bonehead" comment. Sorry for starting the name calling - that was pretty childish of me.

 

E - I can't see enough to tell WTF is going on! Is that lower bolt intended to be part of some anchor? Are there two more bolts to the left with chains, and the bolter intended someone to incorporate the three bolts into an ascent anchor? Are they standing on a 2m wide ledge? Can't tell. Don't know. Never climbed it.

 

I don't know what the history is! Did Kor place three bolts on the FA cause he was worried about piton scarring? Did someone else come along and add a few bolts, and then a few more? Don't know - haven't researched it. If that was the case would I be angry with Kor? But I don't know.

 

I agree with you too, the bolts seems excessive. In fact, I'd like to see most of them go. Maybe.

 

In the end, what I'm arguing, is that "NO BOLTS NEAR NATURAL PROTECTION" is a great guiding principle. But that's all it is. Every decision is not black/white. Every circumstance requires a re-consideration of the guiding principles. And I want to know more.

[kevbone]

Flake off and a few other at Spring mtn. Blantanly bolted cracks.

[chris]

You guys tell me. Climbing with clean protection is a recent (relatively) phenomenom. How do we address repeat ascents of routes that were established when pitons were the standard pro? Or of free ascents of aid routes? Once a route has been free'd, how should the fixed gear be addressed?

[kevbone]

Ok. I put a route up that is 80 feet long and not a beginner leader route. It originally had 7 bolts with one piece of gear. Well the one piece of gear was off to the side by about 3 to 4 feet and not that good of a piece at that. That was the crux was reaching over there to place this kind of shitty yellow Alien, then long sling. I ended up placing a bolt on the route straight in line with the rest of the route. I retroed my own route, making it a better route, if you ask me. Is this considered bolting a crack?

[kevbone]

Well....is this a bolted crack? I put my self out there to be slammed upon by CC.comer and no takers?

[bwrts]

does removing the crack bolt compromise the safety of you the leader?

will you hit the ground if you do not place the crux piece?

 

gear cruxes:

I would imagine that placing the gear ground up on Citypark was part of the crux for mike.

placing the gear on red m n m's (vantage) is the crux for me; having TRd the pitch clean countless times but no gumption to lead it cuz the gear seems tough, so I continue to be happy TRing.

[chris]

Ok. I put a route up that is 80 feet long and not a beginner leader route. It originally had 7 bolts with one piece of gear. Well the one piece of gear was off to the side by about 3 to 4 feet and not that good of a piece at that. That was the crux was reaching over there to place this kind of shitty yellow Alien, then long sling. I ended up placing a bolt on the route straight in line with the rest of the route. I retroed my own route, making it a better route, if you ask me. Is this considered bolting a crack?

 

Sorry Kev - I had to step away from the computer for a few hours. It sounds like your one piece of gear wasn't consistent with the route, and that a bolt was more appropriate. I wouldn't call this bolting a crack.

 

To me, the issue occurs when someone places a bolt at a stance where a natural piece of gear could also be placed. That seems to be the inappropiate use of fixed gear.

 

My question is more akin to my OW examples. When the South Face of Conness was climbed, there was no such thing as big gear, so the FA team placed bolts (the originals are still there, little 1/4"s spinning in the wind). Is it appropriate to replace the bolts of the FA team (all were hardmen, no doubt), or should current ascents carry wide gear, and should someone remove those bolts?

 

Or when a piton finally works loose, should the placement be replaced with another pib, a bolt, or an RP?

 

What happens when a team successfully frees an aid line, and one of the fixed pins used for pro later works loose? Is it appropriate to add bolts on a free version to protect an extended section of hooking?

[Off_White]

Interestingly enough, there's a current thread over on Supertaco that's somewhat related, a discussion around restoring/upgrading fixed hardware on Space Babble on Middle Cathedral in the Valley. For those unfamiliar, Space Babble is perhaps the crown jewel of run out Middle face climbing. The crux first pitch features sparse pin protection driven up into some marginal flakes. At question is how to upgrade the gear without destroying the flavor of the route, and Kevin Worral, one of the FA's, is quite involved in the discussion.

 

If you want to check it out, the thread is "the road to space babble" and it bleeds over into several other threads.

[kevbone]

does removing the crack bolt compromise the safety of you the leader?

will you hit the ground if you do not place the crux piece?

 

To answer your question. If you did not clip the bolt or place the yellow alien, you would risk going on the big ride and mostly hitting a huge ledge. It would be much bolder to run it out. I decided to place the bolt. The rest of the climb is bolted and it seemed silly to leave it with this one piece, which isnt bomber and off to the side. Matter of fact before the bolt went in I watch folks flash it and miss the piece altogether. I decided to retro my own route. I have retroed 4 of my own routes.

[billcoe]

Actually, I just noticed that Kev may not have givin all the details concerning what he was discussing.

 

Kev, are these statements accurate?

 

1) There is not a guidebook for this area and it is not on CC.com, Mountain project or other online internet databases: and the routes are not discussed online to tell people what to do, what to take, and when or where they need to do it.

 

 

2nd) You need a specific piece and you cannot (easily) spot that you need this specific piece from the ground. It appears that a rack of draws will see you through as you are stareing up at it as you can see hangers from the ground. You would need to hear from another who has already climbed the route that you need that specific piece but some of the locals are off raising kids and being good fathers or climbing kick assed trad down the road so you are on your own.

 

3nd) Many gym climbers show up here with a rack of draws because there are other bolted lines. They are oblivious of what is really there.

 

BC

________________________________________________________

 

BTW, I've never seen those bolts on mini 1/2 dome, but I've done some climbs there and it's real solid rock and a nice place to get on. Chop em and bring some big pro is my opinion, its a small formation, you can easily see that the crack is wide from the ground to remember that you need big pro!

[bwrts]

so you saw people climb the route sans gear and bolt but flash it?

[billcoe]

so you saw people climb the route sans gear and bolt but flash it?

 

no - ? have you climbed on it BWRT?

[bwrts]

no i was directing this to kevbone.

and no I have not climbed it...

 

[kevbone]

Actually, I just noticed that Kev may not have givin all the details concerning what he was discussing.

 

Kev, are these statements accurate?

 

1) There is not a guidebook for this area and it is not on CC.com, Mountain project or other online internet databases: and the routes are not discussed online to tell people what to do, what to take, and when or where they need to do it.

 

 

2nd) You need a specific piece and you cannot (easily) spot that you need this specific piece from the ground. It appears that a rack of draws will see you through as you are stareing up at it as you can see hangers from the ground. You would need to hear from another who has already climbed the route that you need that specific piece but some of the locals are off raising kids and being good fathers or climbing kick assed trad down the road so you are on your own.

 

3nd) Many gym climbers show up here with a rack of draws because there are other bolted lines. They are oblivious of what is really there.

 

 

Yes, I say flash because they wanted gear beta, i told them what piece and where, but the missed it. There for it was a flash not onsight.

 

And yes bill all that is correct.

[tradclimbguy]

Ok, so I'll address each a bit and I'll start with the - "Aging hardware" topic.

 

The link OW posted is a good one I've been reading that too. Basically the question is what to do with old hardware like 1/4 button heads with leeper hangars or old degrading pins that continue to fall out or have to be repounded again and again destroying more rock. Somebody has suggested to build replica hardware that look like each so that the original gear could be replaced with something as permanent as a good bolt.

 

Here is a picture:

 

I definately think its a cool idea but I do worry about a couple of things. One being quality control. I'd almost rather see an old pin replaced with a bomber bolt of "known" quality and strength such as from one of our many suppliers of such equipment like BD or Metolius or Fixe, etc. I do however like the idea of trying to retain more of the history but to what extreme? Why not just drill a 3/8th hole in a KB or LA, set the pin then bolt it in so no more hammering is needed, at least i'd know when I clipped that eyelet that it would hold for sure. The guy making the ones above may be good, but home made stuff is pure sketch in my eyes, we will never know if the next guys "replica" bolt-pin was done with quality material.

 

That replica leeper hanger in my book is a bit much. Again the same question with quality of the new piece, it will never retain the same feel, the only way we'd get that is by replacing the worn out leeper with a NOS ("New Old Stock" for you non-collector car types) hangar, but we all know they aren't as strong so maybe when we run across true history such as the leeper we should just replace most of them and leave some in place with a new bolt next to it. Not as aesthetic but then at least you can see the real original bolt. I do see merit when doing a route and old FA gear. Kinda like the single leeper hangar on Slesse near the top, fun to see.

 

Obviously this doesn't carry onto situations where a removed pin allows for new pro such as a cam, those should just be removed, the pin scars are remembrance enough. I would agree however that hammering pins should disappear altogether b/c as I've said before you can bitch and moan all you want about bolts but the damage they do can for the most part be restored whereas a pin scar is here to stay forever and directly affects the climbing itself by modifying holds.

 

Next topic - Kevbone "masta route setta"

 

If people can't find the final placement even with beta and end up risking a ground fall by climbing through that section with no pro I see it as good karma on your part to have added that bolt. No doubt on something that is all bolted minus the one piece of pro people will likely miss the placement. It's like this one 5.9 I can think of at exit 32. I don't know the name, but its the cliff you get to before WWI, it was a 5.9 with a very long run out to the second bolt, but obviously there was a horizontal that took a good nut right in between. Being me I just brought some gear with me for that blank section and protected it right there, voila run out solved but I saw a few other people breeze through it sketched out b/c they though they had to just run it out. yeah, you could say "dumb sportos they should just learn to climb with gear" but it will never happen. Recently I noticed a bolt has been added. Bad form in my book but in reality with every other route there being all bolts its probably just better that way.

 

Who knows maybe some day people will start doing more bolted routes by omitting them and placing gear. Heinous cling used to have 3 or 4 bolts to the top! Gear was placed in between but b/c of damage to the rock and the extra difficulty to find and place marginal pieces bolts were added, probably a good thing in the long run so future generations can appreciate the route minus a bunch of scars and blown out holds from gear.

 

Finally - Off widths and bolting. I'm torn on this one. Things that were once bolted b/c of lack of gear is a hard one. Yes, excalibur doesn't have bolts but it is also very much less accessible than Gorilla of my Dreams and it does have a bat hook ladder past some of the OW so that theory is kind of shot anyway.

 

Basically we have the gear available to us now so I'd hope new FA's out there would do it ground up with gear instead of bolted for easy access, but what to do about the existing routes? My vote would be that you go and climb GOMD with only gear and then proceed to brag about it to everyone, maybe the trend will catch on. I know I'd give you props for taking the effort and time to drag up a bunch of big stuff and crank it out in good style. The bolts won't be in your way and you'll probably never do it again like that while at the same time not upsetting the existing balance of "history" and other such things by chopping the bolts.

 

It's like Sonny Trotter who did that route on Monkey's face and skipped the bolts placing only gear ground up. You ever heard anyone mention that send without making a big deal about him NOT using the bolts? Everybody mentions it, heck he gets more notoriety b/c of it.

 

Anyway those are my long blathering views. Time to work, I guess.

[kevbone]

When do you have time to write all that? Do you work?

 

I am certainly not the masta route seta, but have put up about 20 climbs or so. I think Bill had a good point. This place I was talking about has no guide and because some of it is bolted, and gaining popularity with sporto’s. Complaints have come in saying “I got up towards the top and there was not bolts”. I let that person know there is great gear in front of you. He reply was “I see that. But could not see it from the ground” and because of no guide, how would he know. This person ended up running it out and freaking themselves out pretty good. Of course no bolts will ever go in on that route. That would be blatantly bolting a crack, which is obvious as you climb it. I do think word is out to bring you rack to this crag. Most the climbs are mixed.

 

[DCramer]

I received an email about this thread so I decided I'd chime in. If I wasn't slammed at work I probably would have earlier.

 

The true story behind GMD is that when we cleaned it (and it was a big job) big cams weren't really available. We bolted it so that people would have protection. If big cams are common now, I can care less what happens to the bolts. I can remember when you often came upon fixed bongs and large angles then after Friends, they became less common. Thin pins became less common after thin pro improved. One thing I can say is that with a rack of big cams GMD would in fact be an easier climb. The leader would be in complete control of the fall potential. That is not true with the East Monkee Face. Trotter gets the kudos because it was bold. One thing to consider is that once traffic dips below a certain floor the climb will be reclaimed by vegetation and cease to be climbable. By the way has anyone here ever climbed Black Widow at Midnight? The second pitch of City Park?

 

Wasn't GMD put up about 18 years ago?

[tradclimbguy]

I can only imagine the amount of vegetation on GMD, damn good work DC. As for bolting it, I for one am not against it as I can remember a time before the BD#6

 

I still think if people sent GMD with pro they'd get more props I just don't know how I feel about chopping bolts on that route because I would worry the route would just be reclaimed since not enough people would do it then. I'm perfectly happy clipping them and/or leading next to them for now.

 

You can remember what you did 18 years ago! I sure can't

 

 

[kevbone]

I am going to try to get ahold of the person who bolted the original pic on this thread and ask them WASSSUP!

[Stewart]

This place I was talking about has no guide and because some of it is bolted, and gaining popularity with sporto’s. Complaints have come in saying “I got up towards the top and there was not bolts”. I let that person know there is great gear in front of you. He reply was “I see that. But could not see it from the ground” and because of no guide, how would he know. This person ended up running it out and freaking themselves out pretty good. Of course no bolts will ever go in on that route. That would be blatantly bolting a crack, which is obvious as you climb it.

 

Each climbing move that you make is directly related to the risk that you are willing to take. Your "example climber" was faced with a decision to climb above his gear and take a risk, or down climb. I'm sure the surge of adrenaline felt good (aka "freaking him out"). Sporto's get so comfortable cliping bolts that the actual risk of rock climbing is taken away. They are in fact just getting a work out. If you are going to a new place or a place without a guide I would suggest you bring a light rack up every climb. I personally carry a full rack anywhere I go.

 

Stewart

[RuMR]

man, are you that clown with hexes at the gym??

[mountainmatt]

I have no problems with the fact the GMD was bolted back in the day (Thanks for putting up a great climb DC). The question is do we need to change routes to bring them to modern day standards?

 

I think that the lower section of GMD should remain bolted. I am not a big fan of bolting climbs that can be protected with trad gear, but GMD is at smallest a #4, and likely requires cams bigger than a #6 to protect it properly. That being said, the upper section (above the crux) could eaily be protected with #3 camalots. So maybe the comprimise is to remove the upper bolts, leave the lower ones?

[kevbone]

Each climbing move that you make is directly related to the risk that you are willing to take. Your "example climber" was faced with a decision to climb above his gear and take a risk, or down climb. I'm sure the surge of adrenaline felt good (aka "freaking him out"). Sporto's get so comfortable cliping bolts that the actual risk of rock climbing is taken away. They are in fact just getting a work out. If you are going to a new place or a place without a guide I would suggest you bring a light rack up every climb. I personally carry a full rack anywhere I go.

 

Took the words right out of my next post!

[billcoe]

man, are you that clown with hexes at the gym??

 

Uhhh, sorry, must have been me. I meant to take them off but it was early and dark when I grabbed the harness and the shit was just on it.

[DCramer]

The question is do we need to change routes to bring them to modern day standards?

 

I think that the lower section of GMD should remain bolted. I am not a big fan of bolting climbs that can be protected with trad gear, but(A) GMD is at smallest a #4, and likely requires cams bigger than a #6 to protect it properly. That being said, the upper section (above the crux)(B) could eaily be protected with #3 camalots. So maybe the comprimise is to remove the upper bolts, leave the lower ones?

 

I am not very familiar with Camalots but are you sure #3 Camalots would work? (A does not equal B in the quote above) Let me know what you guys decide to do and let me suggest that all this energy could be put to great use reviving old routes, trail maintenance, fixed gear maintenance and impressing land managers with climber volunteerism.