high_on_rock Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 Uff da, perhaps this has already been answered but I did not want to read 8 pages of thread to find out, but is this show going to make the circuit so that we can all see it? Anyone know? E
billcoe Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 Mr. Moore say: The ship's course will never be corrected, Raindawg. You are now a minority. Nice of you to recognize the need to be "corrected" and thanks for putting us minorities back into our place. Yazz boss! You can profess all you want to but unfortunately, in the majority of cases, it will fall on deaf ears. So, you've got the take on the majority, eh? So, we're supposed to shut up because you feel we're wasting our time, eh? So, if it falls on deaf ears, are you suggesting that the "majority" is sufficiently close-minded as to not to consider the alternatives? There are more of us out here than you think, and we're not leaving town. Get used to it. Mr Moore makes some very pointed salient points which you are obviously ill informed about. I am surprised that this is the best attack you can muster. It appears to me that you did not read his full post, or if you did, did not wish to think yourself wrong. Frankly Dwayner, I agree with many of your points. Gym climbing and sport bolting mentality causes the overcrowding Mr Moore is bringing up. Mr Moore is spot on the money with his post, you can belive that putting in bolts is more environmentally damaging than snowmobiles, but then, you can believe in the tooth ferrie as well if you wish. I am hardly a bolting fanatic. The last 5 routes I cleaned up at Rocky Butte had a total of 1 protection bolt put in. You, however, take it to a new, and unrealistic distant point where you really are by yourself pretty much. I am glad to see you finally acknowledge rappel bolts. There may be hope for you after all:-) BTW neither Moore nor I are asking you to stop preaching, but after a while, it really reminds me of those street Preacher Christians yelling and screaming in strangers faces that the strangers are sinners and going to hell. It is not the best way to make the point IMO. Don't think of that as a personal attack either, cause it isn't, I think I'd have a great time getting on rock with you sometime. Take care Bill
pope Posted December 10, 2006 Author Posted December 10, 2006 Less of an impact? Now I know you are ill-informed and have tunnel vision in this debate. Snowmobiling (and other off road vehicles) with a 2 stroke motor causes more environmental pollution than any other form of transportation. Did you know that 25-30% of a snowmobiles fuel mixture is actually discharged unburned when in operation? That collects in all of the snow and when the spring run-off comes, all of the oil runs into our lakes and rivers, killing thousands of fish and wildlife. Why do you think that Park Rangers in Yellowstone must wear protective gas masks at park entrances in the winter? It is not from the sulfur released by geysers, I promise you. First of all, please quote me the study, since you work in the field, in which it has been determined beyond a shadow of a doubt that "thousands of fish" were killed as a direct result of snowmobile exhaust per se. I'll bet you're speculating and/or inventing data, but you're invited to demonstrate otherwise. Second, as you mentioned, snow mobiles will eventually abandon the oily two-stroke engines. Interesting that the snow-mobile crowd can learn to improve their environmental practices while, in the last 20 years, the "tread lightly" idea has nearly disappeared from rock climbing. Thirdly, even with the current status of snowmobile use, those guys are pretty spread out, their numbers are not large. Allow me then to invent some speculative data which is probably correct: the environmental impact of automobile traffic in and out of Smith Rock since the arrival of sport climbing is probably greater than that of all snowmobile recreation in the state of Oregon. The ship's course will never be corrected, Raindawg. You are now a minority. It's interesting how opponents of sport climbing are criticized for hanging on to their "traditions" for no other reasons than nostalgia and being inflexible in their thinking. Yet, sport climbing has been around for two decades in the U.S. and I submit that its impacts are ready for review. In saying that "the ship's course will never be corrected" it sounds like you are comfortable with your traditions and inflexible in YOUR thinking, incapable of recognizing that there might be another way. Placing bolts in itself is not an environmental travesty. Yes, they can be an eyesore, but they can also be masked by paint. If you look at the environmental destruction caused by the production of bolts and large masses of people coming to an area because of them, then I am sensitive to this as well. But to argue that sport climbing has made Smith an environmental travesty is not founded by me. If anything, look at the non-point source polution flowing through the Crooked River from poor irrigation practices and overapplication of pesticides in the local farms around Smith. This is the old "there's something worse next door, so this is OK" argument. It's kind of embarassing to hide behind a bigger problem when we should be solving our own. My profession involves the environment as I was a director of a land trust for many years working to protect land and water from environmental degredation. Pristine areas that are publicly and privately owned should and are being protected. But Smith is a State Park, to be used by all. Just like the National Forests. Smith is not a national park or monument and I don't see any reason that it should be. Well then, in that case maybe you'd be in favor of getting snowmobiles in there so that we can really take advantage of the place? It is great to have someone want to push a ground-up ethic and I love alpine trad more than anything in the world, but sport climbing has a special place in our world and it will continue to proliferate. You can profess all you want to but unfortunately, in the majority of cases, it will fall on deaft ears. We're just putting the word out for younger climbers who will one day reject the direction that your generation decided to go.
TrogdortheBurninator Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 These discussions do not fall on deaf ears as they can be very formative in developing the ethic of new climbers. Unfortunately, the alpinist/trad majority espoused on this website basically means the discussion is eliciting the response of deaf ears who often have already laid the foundation of their personal ethic. I would guess that the majority (at least of vocal sprayers) on this website view sport climbing in the context discussed by some of the more articulate sprayers in this thread ,i.e. as a rewarding means of challenging one's self while developing skills and strength applicable to the broader sport. However, the broader population of sport climbers should be made aware of these ethics, regardless of whether they are opposed to their own. While I enjoy climbing bolted routes, and dont agree with all of what Pope and dwayner say,I feel that their argument is far more insightful than those who use misplaced analogies to argue an issue just so they can have an excuse to join the thread. Summary: Keep the bolt discussion flowing so that it is more likely to reach a broader population of googlebot climbers just entering the sport. While I don't think these climbers should agree with everything pope and dwayner espouse, it is important that they realize these opinions exist.
roboboy Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 Gyms and bolted sport routes seem to have got a lot more people climbing than when climbing was mostly trad. One reason this is good is because there are a lot more people available to climb with and also a lot more variety of places to go to close by. I’ve never had weeks or months available to camp out at crags so under this new scenario it is possible to get enough climbing time in to allow doing some decent, if technically modest, longer alpine and crag climbs when I have the time. It was the outdoor wilderness experience that got me climbing in the first place, and I really don’t like bolts on rock, but a lot of rock isn’t that special, geologically or scenically. If Deception crags and Vantage weren’t developed for sport climbing then probably hardly anyone would ever go there or even look at the rock, so why not place bolts ? If anyone wants to look at basalt columns without bolts there’s plenty out there. When I used to go to Smith when it was all trad there was a lack of worthwhile new climbs to try fairly soon. It’s a very beautiful area but not too climber friendly in its original state so to me it’s a tossup whether it was developed. But Oregon definitely could use more climbs compared to other western states. I don’t like the way there are so many bolts at Icicle canyon in order to exploit every possible route variation. It’s a beautiful place and geologically part of the beloved Stuart range but the canyon itself is mostly lacking in any really unique or impressive rock formations. The bottom line there may be that the growing numbers of climbers are going to need all those (bolted) Icicle routes to find room to climb, either already or soon, so it may as well be developed. Having been to Joshua Tree and Tuolumne I think it’s commendable that there has been so much restraint in placing bolts on routes there where the landscapes and formations are so unique and beautiful, national park calibre.
EWolfe Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 Uff da, perhaps this has already been answered but I did not want to read 8 pages of thread to find out, but is this show going to make the circuit so that we can all see it? Anyone know? E This is not related to you, High On Rock, but it reminds me of a direction sprot-climbing can take one without due diligence: Sport-climbing is such a quick-fix. One is not required to take the time to assemble appropriate protection, scope stances to place said gear, etc. You see the phenomenon at Smith constantly: someone runs up to a route, throws down a rope and jumps on route with hardly a glance upward. This quick-fix mentality damages the climbing ethos, as well as (through lack of learned observation/process skills) the climbing areas and surrounding environment. We've all seen the trashed sport-climbing crag in our lives ( at least the older among us ). Again, this is no reflection on High_On_Rock, except it's only 4 pages, not 8 (yet) sickie
dmuja Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 JMO - I think some folks are too quick to bolt shit, and I prolly fall some where between two extremes. Its ironic tho, CBS put up a TR that got shit on because there were of a couple of controversial bolts already on it, yet another dude puts up a new route on SEWS and places like 8 or 10? bolts on the first pitch (witch he stated would be unprotectable without them - aka "murdering the impossible") and nobody bats an eye!. much praise instead. I know one climb is a "crag" and the other is "alpine" but still, it seems a little inconsistent to me. Im open to explanations though? D
roboboy Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 I would have said that a place locally that shouldn't become a sport climbing area is Washington pass area. I'm not that familiar with that many climbs there but maybe it already is.
pope Posted December 10, 2006 Author Posted December 10, 2006 ...Its ironic tho, CBS put up a TR that got shit on because there were of a couple of controversial bolts already on it, yet another dude puts up a new route on SEWS and places like 8 or 10? bolts on the first pitch (witch he stated would be unprotectable without them - aka "murdering the impossible") and nobody bats an eye!. much praise instead... Here's some commentary from a handful of folks who aren't allowed to comment on this site: read me.
pope Posted December 10, 2006 Author Posted December 10, 2006 I would have said that a place locally that shouldn't become a sport climbing area is Washington pass area. I'm not that familiar with that many climbs there but maybe it already is. And that's one of my major objections to sport climbing. I've clipped up a couple of routes that I know were rap bolted and was left with a favorable opinion of the climbing. Maybe one or two routes like this would improve the nature of a crag, or maybe if sport climbing were confined only to steep cliffs devoid of any crack climbs...maybe then it would be tolerable. The BIG problem is (and this was predicted by what used to be a majoritiy of climbers who objected to sport climbing back in the 1980s), there seems to be NO restraint. I've seen sport routes go in at Castle Rock within six feet of long-standing classic gear routes, I've seen bolted cracks and chipping. We have witnessed alpine sport routes go up in wilderness areas for crying out loud, and many of the creators of this mess are old and experienced enough to know better! The bottom line is that rap bolting is too friggin' easy and that too many climbers don't think twice about limiting their impulses. We've got a mess. We should be embarassed with the choices we've made.
Checat Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 I bet you those guys that bolted IGNORANT BLISS were pretty emberrassed; when after they were called out through all media avenues and put on display, and pretty much had their characters picked apart. I've heard Allan Watts got the same reception back in the day. You should count on those guys being incredibly humbled by the experience, and they probably will think twice before bolting more lines. Sometimes youthful exuberance can cause miscommunications.
dmuja Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 Here's some commentary from a handful of folks who aren't allowed to comment on this site: read me. Well that would genuinely suck if people were being censored just for their opinions here.. thanks for the link Pope Also, One thing that bugs me is the arguments made about the bolts themselves being the issue. They are not, and it distracts from what we should be discussing. As much as I hate leaving anything behind in the mountains or at crags, arguing that a rock colored 1-2" piece of metal is trashing the environment completely misses the real issue. To be honest, unless your climbing the route and unless your looking for them, most of the time you won't even see them. Having said that, the real issue and impact is due to the unrestrained accessibility and "user friendly" environment that bolts create. Ever smelled piss, climbed in a cloud of tobacco smoke, picked up discarded bear cans and sig butts at the base of a bolted route? I have. Having to buy gear and learn to use it means your likely to be more serious about all aspects of climbing in general including your impact on the environment. Like many have previously said and often, bolting (especially bad bolting) changes the nature and environment of the climb - in other words, it changes ones experience of climbing. an analogy might be like building a bridge from Sea town to the Olympic Peninsula, do you think that would change the nature of the Olympic Peninsula maybe just a little? Some "unclimbable" or unprotectable climbs should always remain just that shouldn't they? And some areas should be kept forever bolt free I think. Maybe we need more than "ethics" to do that, maybe some laws.
eggplant Posted December 10, 2006 Posted December 10, 2006 i infact saw fred beckey climbing in smith, and it seemed he was haveing a great time, get over the bolts and deal with.. go climb moonshine all day
Raindawg Posted December 11, 2006 Posted December 11, 2006 Also, One thing that bugs me is the arguments made about the bolts themselves being the issue. They are not, and it distracts from what we should be discussing. As much as I hate leaving anything behind in the mountains or at crags, arguing that a rock colored 1-2" piece of metal is trashing the environment completely misses the real issue. To be honest, unless your climbing the route and unless your looking for them, most of the time you won't even see them. I disagree. It's not their size or visual appearance, it's whether we have the right to permanently alter the climbing environment. Whether its bolts or chipping holds, you're still leaving a mess in your wake.
Tony_Bentley Posted December 11, 2006 Posted December 11, 2006 The bolts and trails are nothing in comparison to say, the emissions each of you waste just driving down there from Seattle 10 times a year. Pope can be against sport climbers just as easily as I can be against some the same people for the standard in which they live. Their affluensic need to own brand new SUV's and brand new climbing gear and technical clothing is a far greater threat to our society than the bolts in which they clip or the holds in which they glue. What about the same people's lack of involvement in protecting these same lands? How many people that climb at Smith Rocks actually give something back to the environment?
tattooed_climber Posted December 11, 2006 Posted December 11, 2006 meh, i don't sport climb...or boulder i went to smith rocks once....with 2 #6 cams clipped to my harness
Chad_A Posted December 11, 2006 Posted December 11, 2006 I disagree. It's not their size or visual appearance, it's whether we have the right to permanently alter the climbing environment. Whether its bolts or chipping holds, you're still leaving a mess in your wake. I'm pretty sure that your ethics/standards aren't shared at Smith. So go somewhere else. Everyone has the right to their opinions. Above and beyond that, if you're concerned about "permanently altering the environment", there's certainly more pressing issues you could be involved with, or concerned about.
dmuja Posted December 11, 2006 Posted December 11, 2006 I disagree. It's not their size or visual appearance, it's whether we have the right to permanently alter the climbing environment. Whether its bolts or chipping holds, you're still leaving a mess in your wake. I guess what I was trying to convey is that there are consequences to bolting that go significantly beyond the immediate presence of a small piece of metal embedded in the rock. And that these consequences may not be realized by those who place bolts thinking something like "hey' its a small impact to the environment compared to.. etc..." I'll grant them that point if they recognized and admitted the farther reaching rippling effects of what happens after that "sport" route is put up. Alot of things get impacted and diminished imo. Im not an absolutist, but personally I DO think some places should be kept absolutely bolt free - or as close as we can get to that.
RuMR Posted December 11, 2006 Posted December 11, 2006 man, so far, as much as i hate to admit it (its chappin' my hide), i believe poop and dwanus have spoken pretty well and made their points clearly... Nonetheless, sport is here to stay, just like Walmart/kmarts and hopefully the momandpop areas will be allowed to live and be preserved as well...let's keep our smiths/ceuses/buoxs AND keep our bugz and hetchies and tuolome's... there's room for both if we respect each other's positions...
G-spotter Posted December 11, 2006 Posted December 11, 2006 I betcha if Frank Smythe was still alive he'd call Poop and Dwayndog nasty names because they cowardly place pro, and don't 4th class everything...
hawkeye69 Posted December 11, 2006 Posted December 11, 2006 interesting disussion. but i do have one question in regards to this Yes, I clipped up a few routes (even flashed an 11d with a bowline on a coil for a harness does strokin yourself make that rope stiff?
pope Posted December 11, 2006 Author Posted December 11, 2006 interesting disussion. but i do have one question in regards to this Yes, I clipped up a few routes (even flashed an 11d with a bowline on a coil for a harness does strokin yourself make that rope stiff? Maybe your rope. Anyway, this ain't spray, so save your Ronald McDonald comments for the pirate forum.
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