KaskadskyjKozak Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 KK is just expressing what Chuck D said in a different way: "A * kills a white man. That's murder one. A white man kills a *. That's self-defence. A * kills a *. That's just another dead *." If an American kills an Iraqi, that's good, but if a Chinese kills a Tibetan, it's bad. And if an Iraqi kills an Iraqi, well, that's just the way it goes. That's not what I said at all. Every war involves death of civilians. Every single one. Certain regimes, however, go far beyond such losses in their concerted, organized, purposeful slaughter of innocent civilians. The Turks did it to the Armenians, Stalin to the Ukrainians, the Nazis to the Jews, and Pol Pot to Cambodians. Add the Chi Comms to the latter list. The US doesn't even come close to qualifying on this list of infamy. Get a clue Canuck moron, or STFU. Quote
G-spotter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 white guys Some of my ancestors rode the underground railroad to get away from American genocide. Maybe you would have preferred Uncle Sam to gun them down at the border? Quote
G-spotter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 KK is just expressing what Chuck D said in a different way: "A * kills a white man. That's murder one. A white man kills a *. That's self-defence. A * kills a *. That's just another dead *." If an American kills an Iraqi, that's good, but if a Chinese kills a Tibetan, it's bad. And if an Iraqi kills an Iraqi, well, that's just the way it goes. That's not what I said at all. Every war involves death of civilians. Every single one. Certain regimes, however, go far beyond such losses in their concerted, organized, purposeful slaughter of innocent civilians. The Turks did it to the Armenians, Stalin to the Ukrainians, the Nazis to the Jews, and Pol Pot to Cambodians. Add the Chi Comms to the latter list. The US doesn't even come close to qualifying on this list of infamy. Get a clue Canuck moron, or STFU. How many people do you have to kill to make it genocide? Cause the US is up to 600,000 in Iraq. Maybe they can stay there until they tie with the Turks in Armenia or something. Then they can have their own trading card and stuff. Or maybe GWB is going to stay in Iraq until he's killed more Iraqis than Saddam did? Talk about dick measuring Quote
JayB Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Maybe he's realized his error, and is searching the internet for "Ace of Base" lyrics so that he'll have something more consistent with his identity to cite in defense of his very closely reasoned "physical = moral" argument. Quote
JayB Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 white guys Some of my ancestors rode the underground railroad to get away from American genocide. Maybe you would have preferred Uncle Sam to gun them down at the border? Maybe if they could look into what lay ahead and catch a glimpse of their future progeny channeling ChuckD, they would have prefered that as well. Way to appropriate a past you never experienced and hardships that you never suffered to support a dubious point and the use of a hillariously innapropriate source, though. Quote
KaskadskyjKozak Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 How many people do you have to kill to make it genocide? Cause the US is up to 600,000 in Iraq. Maybe they can stay there until they tie with the Turks in Armenia or something. Then they can have their own trading card and stuff. Or maybe GWB is going to stay in Iraq until he's killed more Iraqis than Saddam did? Talk about dick measuring First off, I don't buy the 600K number. Secondly, it's about intent, not body count. Murder one is different from manslaughter. Likewise genocide is different from war. And stick that thumb right up your Quote
G-spotter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Killing is not different from killing. Quote
JayB Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 No.no.no. Clearly there's no difference whatsoever between an Iraqi that's killed by one of the insurgent groups or death squads that our troops have been fighting since day one killing another Iraqi, and the US Army making it a point to use their weaponry to the utmost to kill every civilian that they can get their hands on. Exactly the same thing. And if that was our objective, surely the best way to go about it would have been deploying hundreds of thousands of troops and billions of dollars in an attempt to build up the country instead of just using B-52's to level all of the population centers. So if Dru is fumbling with his radio while driving, and collides with a van full of prisoners, and one of them escapes as a result of the crash and runs off and kills someone, I fully expect Dru to act in a manner that's consistent with his reasoning and insist that he be tried and convicted for the murder. Quote
G-spotter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 How about if I join the army, and you join the Army, and then I shoot you? Friendly fire. That's just fine eh? Quote
JayB Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Killing is not different from killing. This is quite the impressive display of someone uncritically reciting strident positions most often jettisoned shortly after adolescence. Keep it up. Per this reasoning the cop that shoots the guy attempting to murder other people is the moral equal of the murderer, the surgeon who bungles a prodedure and has his patient die on the table is the moral equal of the guys who behead their captives, the pharmacist and the crack dealer are indistinguishable from one another, etc. Quote
glassgowkiss Posted October 17, 2006 Author Posted October 17, 2006 laddy, you are mistaking 2 things. first of all- most of the killing in Iraq is done between the arabs themselves. the situation is very simmilar to one in former Jugoslavia after Tito's death. both coutries were an artificial creation, where several nationalities were stuck together- on the other hand they hate each other for centuries. fammily fudes go on for decades, so in iraq very often they just settle the scores. there is a big differance between soldier doing "taget practice" on unarmed civilians and shooting at armed militias. i don't dispute going to iraq was the right thing to do. on the other hand with hundreds of reporters you don't see the scenes you saw on the footage from tibet. Quote
JayB Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 How about if I join the army, and you join the Army, and then I shoot you? Friendly fire. That's just fine eh? How about if you take gratuitous potshots from north of the border, I return the favor, and you lose your cool for a bit and come up with a crazy-ass hypothetical that made me laugh my ass off here in the office? Eh? Quote
wdietsch Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Killing is not different from killing. and having sex is the same as rape? Quote
G-spotter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Killing is not different from killing. and having sex is the same as rape? no, having sex with consent is assisted suicide, to mix metaphors Quote
G-spotter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 How about if I join the army, and you join the Army, and then I shoot you? Friendly fire. That's just fine eh? How about if you take gratuitous potshots from north of the border, I return the favor, and you lose your cool for a bit and come up with a crazy-ass hypothetical that made me laugh my ass off here in the office? Eh? crazy-ass hypothetical when an American kills 4 Canadians, but if a Canadian kills 4 Americans, that's terrorism Quote
JayB Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Yeah dude. If Americans were on the receiving end of a friendly fire incident like that we'd all be marching in the streets and denouncing them and the Army they're part of as terrorists. Good counterpoint, there, soul-brother. I can't hang with a rhetorical heavyweight of your caliber, so I'll have to sign-off on this one. Quote
Fairweather Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 I'm not sure how this jibe's with the other accounts of Romanian climbers that gave sanctuary, but this account regarding some of the western mountain guides pretty much sums up the bigger picture: "By at least one account, the climbers witness to the massacre did nothing to help, and the commercial expedition leaders, concerned that interference would jeopardize their future ability to work in Tibet, went so far as to dissuade expedition members from protesting." Quote
Jopa Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 You are a pathetic moderator, JayB. Someone posts footage of unarmed people being executed and your only contribution is nearly a dozen off-topic inflamatory trolls. Thank you for posting this, GGK. I was just discussing this with someone who is visiting from China and he downplayed the violence, so I forwarded him this video. It should help to stir up our next discussion. Given the interdependent nature of global capitalism it is conceivable that certain inducements could make calming the violence at the border (along with other oppressive policies of the Chinese government) part of the Chinese government's best interest. Quote
JayB Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Just for the record, I don't like you either, but on the off chance that you were singling me out for censure on account of the fact that I should hold myself to higher standards in the forums where I'm a moderator, and not because of previous beefs or a general disdain for me for some other reason, I'll admit that you have a point. Given the nature of the topic, I should have ignored this statement: " You mean by moral relativism, that when Chinese soldiers kill an unamed Tibetan refugee, it's wrong because the Chinese are "bad guys" but when US soldiers kill an unarmed Iraqi, it's OK because the US soldiers are "good guys"? That kind of moral relativism?" And moved on. I didn't watch the footage. If I had, perhaps I would have conducted myself differently, and I'll admit that I should have. Regards, Quote
G-spotter Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Make It Hardcore Aint that a bitch, I heard somebody think Rap is dead cause people runnin outta shit to say... Yeah - at your high school, promisin what? Better recognize the bling of the murder machine that's why it's meaning in the words when we serve and ask you to think ... For the fake patriot, ain't no questions asked Especially when the babies kill each other for gas Known to blast on a menace that don't even exist Set up puppet governments for the rich to get richer ... Who's crazy? I can see through the disguise See, through the media's propaganda and lies See a nation full of sheep still simple and blind Quote
Mal_Con Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Dude we are counting on the Chinese to keep the NK in check, we are not about to insult such a fine group of folks what would the heirs of Sam Walton say? Quote
chris_stolz Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 Coal? Fusion? You think you are gonna run a jet or a logging truck on electricity? You're gonna replace (relatively) clean oil and n.g. with coal? You know, there's a reason why there are laws in most of the industrialised world prohibiting use of coal for heating. You coudl also go to Beijing and see for yourself. I have yet to see a fusion reactor come even close to anything like productivity. Fusion has been "25 years away" ever since I was ten. Ever heard of E.R.O.E.I.? Energy returned on energy invested. You spend more than the energy equivalent of one ton of coal to extract a ton of coal, you stop extracting coal, NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE. The EROEI of every major energy source in the world is in massive decline. In 1950, you got 100 barrels of oil for every barrel you spent exploring. In 2003 it was 3; in 2004 (data suggests but isn't conclusive yet) it was 1. Your oil stocks are going through the roof partly cos supply now matches demand and cos it is chepaer to buy oil somebody else has already found than to drill for it yourself. You think the Chinese are going to run an economy on coal shipped from Australia? The good news about "peak oil" is that it will (hopefully) slowly stop Chinese genocide and the elimination of a very, very sophisticated Buddhist culture which took about 1400 years (in Tibet) to develop insights which the Western world is still trying to catch up with. Unfortunately-- as the US presence in Iraq suggests-- when the energy crunch comes, we don't get rational and cut back and plan to downsize. We fight for what's left. Hopefully the Chinese don't find oil, or cheap coal, in Tibet. My guess is they will slowly find reasons to pull out. Most of Tibet is a desert, high, cold and kinda miserable. A good place for monasteries, yaks, meditating and the occasional massive liquor bender. In a future which is absolutely going to be lower tech than the present, and free of things like antidepressant pills, factory meat, Internet shopping, free universal health care, etc etc, we are gonna need all the low-tech wisdom we can get our grubby little hands on. You can spend hundreds of dollars a year curing your depression or work stress or poor life choices with pills, or you could practice meditation and cure it for pretty much free. You can eat shitfood and f*ck your body up, or you could learn to grow herbs and decent veggies or your own chickens, and live with less. I hate to ever imagine there are "solutions" to problems, but one thing is for sure-- if we were a little more Buddhist (and Tibetan economically) we could be happier, and live more sanely. I mean, when you die, what are you going to remember on your deathbed-- your SUV? Shopping? Your granite countertops and your Creuset cookware? Quote
Dechristo Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 I mean, when you die, what are you going to remember on your deathbed ...? I never remember anything when I'm having an "ahhh" moment of ineffable beauty. Then again, maybe I'll be horrified in remembering I just filled my gas tank and renewed my membership at the health club. Quote
chris Posted October 17, 2006 Posted October 17, 2006 GGK, I finally sat down and watched the footage you posted. Thanks for sharing. It is sad and horrible and sickening. I still stand by my original assertion, that involvement and standing witness to this will produce more results than attempting to isolate them will. Quote
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