Alternative-Energy Transportation

[tvashtarkatena]

As a fireman / paramedic my stance is different. I have been on countless "donor cycle" accidents over the years some were the drivers fault like excessive speed, but a lot were the fault of other moroists who dont pay attention to people on motorcycles and dont treat them as cars. When you get in a motorcycle accident you get BAD hurt / killed, when you get in a car accident you get Bad Hurt, when you are in a SUV or Truck you just get hurt. You will never see me on a motorcycle of any sort.

Yes I drive a SUV a Toyota 4-runner (good safety ratings with airbags) and I get 22mpg, sure I pay more in gas, but what is my life worth? I have seen a lot of accidents and that is my feelings on the matter.... Maybe someday things will be safe, but untill then SUV here I come.

 

The statistics on vehicle accident safety contradict this anecdotal experience. SUV's are actually less safe than midsized autos, for three primary reasons.

 

1) They roll more. A lot more. Rolling is one of the primary causes of serious injury or death in auto accidents (assuming airbags and seat belts are in use).

2) They are not unibody construction, and so transfer more of the kinetic energy of impact directly to the occupants through their stiffer chassis rather than absorbing it (by crumpling). This is particularly a problem in side impacts, where restraints don't help as much and side to side neck injuries are common.

3) They are less maneuverable and take longer to stop, and so cannot avoid accidents as adeptly as most cars.

 

Back to motorcycles, the key to safety is anticipation. Good motorcyclist must always expect that other vehicles are going to do something stupid. This is particularly true with SUVs and trucks (on this my motorcycling friends unanimously agree), which are too often piloted by the most aggressive and/or least attentive drivers on the planet.

 

It's true that you don't want to go down on a motorcycle. But motorcycles have several advantages, too. First, the anticipation required to ride a bike makes you a safer driver of any vehicle. It's a different, more attentive way of driving, and its definitely not for everybody. Second, with their faster acceleration and narrower profile, you can avoid often avoid accidents more adeptly than in a larger vehicle.

 

If, however, a motorcycle seems more dangerous (than climbing?) than you're comfortable with, then early to mid 90's Honda Civics and (gulp) Geo Metros, get gas mileage in the high 30s, low 40s...if you can find one that isn't ready to give up its ghost!

[ClimbingPanther]

I was getting ready to respond, but then I thought, I don't know what the reason is for the "Alternative-Energy Transportation". Is it to cut personal costs (cheaper insurance, higher MPG, etc) or it is to be more envirionmentally friendly, in the vein of burning less fossil fuels?

 

The reason I'm asking is that, recently, I saw an article on mopeds in the Willamette Weekly, covering mopeds. The MPG is great, and the running costs cheap, but even the most modern 4 cycle mopeds have a very high PPM of unburned hydrocarbons in the emissions. So high, in fact, that the big SUV they compared them to had a fraction of the hydrocarbon emission, due to (probably) better a better engine management system, and emission controls. The older 2-cycle versions of mopeds were awful in this regard.

 

I'll see if I can come up with a link; not sure if the Willamette Weekly puts up their stories online.

 

vw4ever, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I wanted to learn more about. There's pros and cons for every option, and that is really what I want to bring out in the discussion so I can make an informed determination of what's best for me to do, not just to find the absolute best mpg ever in the world or the most environmentally perfect option in the world or whatever. Thanks!

[jmace]

No motorcycle insurance required in Washington.

 

hey is this true..?

[underworld]

i hope so...

 

well, if you finance the bike, i'm sure you've got to insure it - since it is the bank's bike at that point.

 

which reminds me... i saw an ad for 72 month financing on motorcycles sounds like a great idea

[jmace]

since it is the bank's bike at that point.

 

Actually, not so true, true with a lease but not true with a loan.

 

Thats why its easier to lease than to buy, less risky for the lender since as a lease its always theirs..you just give it back at the end of the term. With a loan its yours.

 

So..can you have a bike in Washington with no insurance as the last guy said?

 

and why would you pity the foo that took on a 3 year bike loan ?

[underworld]

72 months is 6 years

[tvashtarkatena]

You have the same liability insurance requirement as for a car in Washington state. Gotta carry that card. As for comp, if you've paid for the bike, that's your decision. If you take out a loan, your lender will probably require it. I have an 800 cc bike, mind you. Don't know about mopeds, etc.

 

My personal, not-even-close-to-expert recommendation would be to get at least a 400 cc machine if you want to tussle with any freeway driving.

 

Another thing that hasn't been discussed yet about motorcycles is maintenance. Three features will greatly reduce the art of motorcycle maintenance: Shaft drive (rather than chain), fuel injection (rather than carberator), and non-adjustable valves. These, of course, are generally available on newer and more expensive bikes. Not a huge deal, depending on your personality, but something to consider.

[jmace]

haha ya right, yes 6 years would be lame.

 

You have the same liability insurance requirement as for a car in Washington state. Gotta carry that card. As for comp, if you've paid for the bike, that's your decision. If you take out a loan, your lender will probably require it.

 

Right, ok same as Canada.

 

Ins here on my 750cc, 600 a year for basic, 3300 a year if I include comp.

 

Thankfully I am not required to purchase comp, although I now have three locks on the thing in my secure garage.

 

For a minute I thought I was gonna have to register my bike at a friends house in Washington for no ins plates.

[Chad_A]

I was getting ready to respond, but then I thought, I don't know what the reason is for the "Alternative-Energy Transportation". Is it to cut personal costs (cheaper insurance, higher MPG, etc) or it is to be more envirionmentally friendly, in the vein of burning less fossil fuels?

 

The reason I'm asking is that, recently, I saw an article on mopeds in the Willamette Weekly, covering mopeds. The MPG is great, and the running costs cheap, but even the most modern 4 cycle mopeds have a very high PPM of unburned hydrocarbons in the emissions. So high, in fact, that the big SUV they compared them to had a fraction of the hydrocarbon emission, due to (probably) better a better engine management system, and emission controls. The older 2-cycle versions of mopeds were awful in this regard.

 

I'll see if I can come up with a link; not sure if the Willamette Weekly puts up their stories online.

 

vw4ever, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I wanted to learn more about. There's pros and cons for every option, and that is really what I want to bring out in the discussion so I can make an informed determination of what's best for me to do, not just to find the absolute best mpg ever in the world or the most environmentally perfect option in the world or whatever. Thanks!

 

Ok, well, lets see if we can do some kind of a roundup, here.

 

Motorcycles- Seems to be some kind of an argument about insurance. MPG can't be argued with; are probably reasonably "dirty" because of the lack of emissions equipment on them. Just a guess. Reasonable price of admission; bad prospects for surviving a crash uninjured, and not fun for the rainy months.

 

Mopeds- Bad emissions, same for the crash prospect and weather issues. Great MPG, though the price of admission for a newer one that's nice or that will travel at a good speed is approaching, or the same, as a motorcycle. I've been told that the insurance is cheap.

 

Bike- I can't remember what forum it's in, but there was an ongoing discussion about bike commuting here in one of the forums. From what I remember, seems like it wasn't too cheap, with the maintainance involved, and the price of a good bike. No insurance need. Slowest form of travel, unless you're in the inner city (I used to be able to travel faster than traffic when I bike commuted). Weather gets to be a pain in the ass, and discouraging. Or at least it was for me.

 

Hybrids/Biodiesel- Not the same thing, but the cost of admission is high, and the upper end SUV/luxury hybrids don't really save you much as far as MPG. TDIs and the such are good for long hauls with good MPG, and are getting cleaner, especially with the growing availability of Biodiesel. I was told that VW isn't bringing the TDIs here for a bit, until they're revised for legal sale in California (they're making them cleaner yet, supposedly). TDIs are hard to find here in the PNW, and they don't depreciate much. If you buy early enough in the year, you're able to get tax breaks for owning a hybrid (though it's limited to a certain number of vehicles by the government). Also, it's a question that one of the chemists here might be able to answer....what's going to happen to all the batteries that are running around in the hybrids when they someday fail? Something I don't know much about, maybe someone can weigh in on that one who knows what they're talking about (that wouldn't be me).

 

Then there's the standard Public Transportation. I've used that in Portland, and it's relatively manageable with some planning, and assuming you don't work a 12 hour day (it made my days into 14 hour days r/t travel time added). In your area you might be able to purchase a yearly pass that will save you some $$$ and hassle.

 

Car pooling- is that an option? Anybody at work willing to put forth the effort? That can be a low impact (personally) option for you.

 

Leaving the gas guzzler at home- My g/f and I have a Subie an a Cherokee, respectively. On the days that I'm going to do lots of commuting around town, I'll take her car (30 mpg). I do some traveling for work purposes, and If we're both working, I'll have her take the Jeep to her work where it will sit all night, and I'll have her car, which is more miserly in most respects.

 

Just thoughts; sorry for the long post. Carry on

[counterfeitfake]

Motorcycles- Seems to be some kind of an argument about insurance.

 

If there is an argument that is weird- insurance is not required in Washington, this is a fact. Minimal insurance is cheap. If you finance a bike you probably need full insurance. As an aside, please don't finance a bike.

 

are probably reasonably "dirty" because of the lack of emissions equipment on them. Just a guess.

 

This is "probably" a bad guess. I believe most if not all new bikes have emission control equipment on them, both of mine have. There is "probably" more info here if anyone wants to dig.

[tvashtarkatena]

My previous is retracted. Motorcycles are exempted from the requirement for mandatory insurance in Washington.

[chucK]

Quick note about the TDI's and bio-diesel. The warranty is void if you use > 20% bio-diesel. So you probably can't use bio-diesel if you lease, and probably don't want to if you're buying new.

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Some ideas (dependent on job type, of course):

1) see if your employer will let you do a 4 day work week - 10 hours per day.

2) see if your employer will let you work from home one day a week.

3) sleep at your office.

[jmace]

Wow, no ins needed, that is freakin awesome!!!

 

Why do you think its not a good idea to finance a bike..?

[underworld]

quit work... then won't have to commute and can't afford to do anything but walk

[underworld]

well, i think it's a bad idea to finance cars too.... not to say i haven't done it before. paying interest on something that depreciates is double bad. ... and 6 years is just a long time to be paying on, what is typically, a toy.

 

IMO

[Chad_A]

Motorcycles- Seems to be some kind of an argument about insurance.

 

If there is an argument that is weird- insurance is not required in Washington, this is a fact. Minimal insurance is cheap. If you finance a bike you probably need full insurance. As an aside, please don't finance a bike.

 

are probably reasonably "dirty" because of the lack of emissions equipment on them. Just a guess.

 

This is "probably" a bad guess. I believe most if not all new bikes have emission control equipment on them, both of mine have. There is "probably" more info here if anyone wants to dig.

 

Cool, thanks for that.

[Chad_A]

Just a quick note, (can't copy and past, it's in PDF format)

 

"The current federal motorcycle standard is about 90 times the hydrocarbon standard for passenger cars"

 

"the new regulations (2006) will only effect new motorcycles produced for the 2006 and later model years".

 

Does that indicate that motorcycles, at least in the past, have been dirty? The PDF does point out that most motorcycles from 2002-2003 have had catalytic converters.

 

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/roadbike/420f03045.pdf

[slothrop]

The maintenance costs for a bicycle aren't much, in my experience, especially if you do a little preventive maintenance. You can get a great used bike for $200, a nice new road bike for $600, or a new "hybrid"/commuter bike for less than that. If you lube the chain now and then and use covered storage, there's not much to maintain. And you can replace the whole bike for the cost of a front brake replacement on your car.

 

It's easier to learn to do any and all bike maintenance jobs that it is to learn to be a car mechanic, especially on a newer car.

 

Veggie-oil diesel is an option that hasn't come up yet. A friend of mine converted his Mercedes diesel sedan to run veggie oil. He put in a second fuel tank with a switch and always starts on petrodiesel, then once the temp gets high enough, switches on the fry oil. Similarly, when finishing a drive, he switches back to petrodiesel to flush the more viscous veggie oil from the lines.

 

He gets his fuel for free from restaurants, then filters it and has a special filter in the car. The catch, though, is that the in-car filters are expensive and wear out quickly, so I think he ends up paying more than $1/gallon just in filters.

[fenderfour]

Just a quick note, (can't copy and past, it's in PDF format)

 

"The current federal motorcycle standard is about 90 times the hydrocarbon standard for passenger cars"

 

"the new regulations (2006) will only effect new motorcycles produced for the 2006 and later model years".

 

Does that indicate that motorcycles, at least in the past, have been dirty? The PDF does point out that most motorcycles from 2002-2003 have had catalytic converters.

 

http://www.epa.gov/OMS/regs/roadbike/420f03045.pdf

 

Buy a BMW. They all have catalytic converters and are CARB compliant.

[Chad_A]

The maintenance costs for a bicycle aren't much, in my experience, especially if you do a little preventive maintenance. You can get a great used bike for $200, a nice new road bike for $600, or a new "hybrid"/commuter bike for less than that. If you lube the chain now and then and use covered storage, there's not much to maintain. And you can replace the whole bike for the cost of a front brake replacement on your car.

 

It's easier to learn to do any and all bike maintenance jobs that it is to learn to be a car mechanic, especially on a newer car.

 

Veggie-oil diesel is an option that hasn't come up yet. A friend of mine converted his Mercedes diesel sedan to run veggie oil. He put in a second fuel tank with a switch and always starts on petrodiesel, then once the temp gets high enough, switches on the fry oil. Similarly, when finishing a drive, he switches back to petrodiesel to flush the more viscous veggie oil from the lines.

 

He gets his fuel for free from restaurants, then filters it and has a special filter in the car. The catch, though, is that the in-car filters are expensive and wear out quickly, so I think he ends up paying more than $1/gallon just in filters.

 

Good info. I'm sure that if the cards are played right, a bike is the best way to go of all of this,IMHO.

 

I have heard of the veggie diesel, the the "homemade" option is getting more scarce due to oil-giveaway by restaurants on the decline (why should they if they can sell it off?). That idea of running straight veggie oils is innovative in the way your friend is doing that. The toggle-switch idea is neat.

[JayB]

I guess it depends on what you consider bike commuting. If you are riding too and from work everyday, all year long, the odds are pretty good that it'll cost more than you think, and you'll spend a bit more than you planned on things that might seem necessary. If you carry anything that needs to stay dry to and from work, the odds are good that you'll want to pick up a truly waterproof bag of some sort. The trash bag thing is okay for the odd trip in the rain, but if you are riding in bad weather consistently you're probably going to want to opt out of the hefty-bag-and-backpack cluster and get something that you can just toss your stuff in and go. For the sake of efficiency and safety, you'll probably eventually go clipless. Even if you go cheap you'll be spending at least $100 on the pedals and the shoes. If you ride much at night, you'll probably be investing in some lights.

 

If you are out there every day, the odds are also pretty good that you'll be spending more on maintenance and repairs than you expected as well. I think I spent at least $60 on break pads alone last year, and way more replacing rims, cranks, sprockets, chains, cables, etc. Then the money I spent on tools to do most of the maintenance on my own. Studded tires for the winter, etc.

 

The point is not necessarily that commuting by bike is expensive relative to driving your car in, but that the odds are good that if you make a lifestyle out of it, you'll spend more than you expected to. Pretty much everyone I know that's done it every-day for at least a year has said the same thing. There's also the fact that aside from cutting down on your gas money, most people keep their cars and still fork over a significant portion of the fixed costs of owning a car every month. That's a choice, but it's a choice that most people that commute by bike make, so the average savings that they realize aren't as great. I still think that compared to buying a bus pass and hopping on a bus everyday, that I'd be just about even in terms of expenses.

[RedNose]

Fuck oh dear, you wankers sure know how to pull your pud don't ya.

[Crux]