What's the deal with this softshell stuff?

[scm007]

It seems to me that the PNW is too wet in general to use softshells. Why use em? If you can convince me I'm looking for a good softshell set-up. Right now I have Merino Wool baselayer, Driclime, hardshell. It works, but it's a little heavy and not too breathable. Now in some cases it seems like it is a good idea, but why not just get a lightweight fleece pullover (like the R1) and then a houdini as the houdini is basically just the DWR part of a softshell jacket and then you can mix and match your fleece as you need. Seems a lot more versatile. I can see them being good for alpine rock and ice climbing, but for glacier climbing, seems like you'd want a hardshell.

Edited September 30, 2006 by scm007

[slothrop]

I wear a softshell skiing, when I'm pretty sure any precip will be snow and I know I'll be working hard while skinning and thus don't want a less breathable shell. Softshell pants on basically every alpine trip.

[dbconlin]

I think you have a good, workable set up already, but in praise of softshells:

 

I did not wear anything else on my top half last winter. I endured days with constant snow all day long and was just as dry, if not drier, than my hardshell-clad colleagues.

 

I made an early season attempt on Rainier's Ptarmigan Ridge in the spring. Both of us wore softshell tops, I had hardshell bottoms and my partner had softshell pants. We left the car in RAIN. A little higher the rain turned to SNOW. It did not let up ALL DAY, yet we were both comfortable (though not exactly dry). By morning we were both completely dry, it was still a whiteout blizzard, and we bailed, descending back to the car. NO PROBLEMS with the clothing system in conditions that prevented us from climbing anyway.

[eternalX]

But do they make any softshells that are cool enough for us snowboarders? All I ever see are those spandex-tight ones that only a skier would wear...

 

[Alpaholic]

Check out this site (see links on left, "the real softshell concept" and "the best softshell in the world"):

http://www.psychovertical.com/?clothing

 

that should answer just about any question about softshells and the site has a bunch of other good info as well.

 

According to Steve House (and the above site, if you read into it properly) your houdini idea is the softshell meathod. You'll be happy to know you're thinking in the right direction after watching the video linked to this site ("Steve House talks gear"):

http://www.patagonia.com/web/us/patagonia.go?assetid=10348

[gearup5000]

Softshells are very wind resistant - depending on the fabric!

Hardshells are waterproof.

 

Softshells allow more heat to escape so you don't get wet/sweat on the inside as much.

 

I used to have a really usefull piece from MTn hardwear,

it was "tempest" jacket - virtually waterproof, and had a microfleece lining, so when it rained - and thus got cold with a t-shirt - the lining kept me jsut right w/o overheating.

Soemthing to look into maybe?

 

For light precip when wearing a softshell, I keep an activent hoody in my pack. Probably weighs the same as the hood of a softshell alone, so....a good working combo.

 

The way I decided to get a softshell, was that for the extra $$$, I got a more durable, versatile piece.

I have a gamma SV from arc'teryx.

 

^^My logic: I get the warmth of a fleece, but I don't need a secondary layer to keep the wind out. With my activent hoody I'm good for a lot of conditions and would be more comfortable that with a fleece/g-tex combo.

My softshell will last a LOT longer, and keeps you dry relatively in light precip. I also run a little cold so...part of my process.

^^the gamma sv is also a relative warm item.

Hope this helped!

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2006 by gearup5000

[mattp]

We'll all be trading in our wardrobes every few years for the latest thing probably as long as we climb or as long as we think of ourselves as climbers. The new generation of softshell clothing is very comfortable, and looks great, but in reality it doesn't function all that much differently from a cheap windbreaker and a pair of old slacks from salvation army.

 

I'm not trying to be overly cynnical. Yes, the softshells stretch, shed water well, and are somewhat tough - but are they worth $100 for a pair of pants and $200 for a jacket? Maybe but not necessarily. You'll make it up and down The Tooth or Mount McKinley either way.

[gearup5000]

^^You are on point with your post.

I find it funny when ppl wrinkle their nose at my army sweater: a CDN Forces (military) "wooly pully" sweater is the best $$$ for a winter wool sweater there is.

They are about $30-40 CDN NEW - and are sized like suits, so you can get 40", 46" Tall, whatever, they are ribbed vertically so every size has some stretch for layering,

and are supremely durable.

Also, they are amazingly warm.

 

MattP: These guys know what you are talkin' about:

http://home.primus.ca/~dooley/climbing/squamish/grandwall/freaks/grandfreaks.html

[ericb]

Great points in the discussion.....In Twight's book, Extreme Alpinism, he points out that softshells are the way to go on bottom because the harness and boots make taking layers on and off difficult, thereby warranting clothing with a higher working comfort range. It's less important on top when you can more easily take layers on and off....shed to climb, bundle up to belay, etc. Also, for a pure shell, I think softshells are heavier than newer lightweight waterproof fabrics (paclite,xcr, etc.) I have both a Paclite goretex shell, and a ~highend, thin/lightweight softshell, and use them both for different applications. As long as the weather report is good, or as was mentioned earlier, cold enough to snow only, I really like my light softshell due to breathability. Another advantage to the softshell that I've found....due to the stretchiness, I can get a much more aggressive fit without losing mobility - nice to not have a bunch of extra fabric getting in the way of pack straps, harness, slings, etc.

 

Obviously, this doesn't leave much room for layers below, but the softshell and a medium weight merino wool long-sleeve zip tee under is plenty warm for me as long as i'm moving, and I have a light synthetic belay jacket to pull on for rest-stops.

[JayB]

Depends on the fabric. Stuff made out of WB-400 seems like the perfect compromise between shedding snow/water/wind and breathability. I ordered some pants made out of the stuff from Beyond Fleece, and love them.

 

I wouldn't get the WB-400 for cardio-intensive stuff that's mostly below treeline, but a jacket made of the stuff (with a hood) would be just about perfect for full winter conditions, and if you threw in a superlight shell for the times when you were stopped you'd be set to handle a pretty wide range of conditions.

 

Worth every penny IMO. Works great - and lasts forever. Most of my softshell stuff is going on season 8, and it's almost as good as new. If I was in a financial position where I could only afford Salvation Army stuff, I have no idea how I'd have been able to buy the ropes, cams, tools, etc - much less pay the routine costs associated with driving to the mountains. The (increased comfort*number of outings/years of use) equation is such that you either have to be destitute or very, very intent on making a point to go the Salvation Army route.

 

I buy at least half of all of my clothes at thrift stores because I could care less how a pair of jeans or everyday shoes performs, but I've never regretted making an investment in good gear.

[Toast]

I thought about the best investment I ever made was $100 in a pair of OR Guide Pants. that was 5 years ago, and they're still my favorite piece of gear and go out on every trip I do. I never get too hot in them, I've waded across strems in them, sweated them out, and they've dried out in short time. A good pair of synthetic pants is worthy.

 

I think your formula for a top is highly dependent upon yur level of activity and the environment. A softshell jacket might be nice for ice cragging, but I like the versatility of what ypur describe... a super lightweight shell and the appropriate synthetic top.

 

My $0.02

[Mr_Phil]

The chicks dig it.

[Ade]

Yes, the softshells stretch, shed water well, and are somewhat tough - but are they worth $100 for a pair of pants and $200 for a jacket? Maybe but not necessarily. You'll make it up and down The Tooth or Mount McKinley either way.

 

Where are you getting those killer deals on that stuff?! Last time I looked The Dead Bird was trying to take you for nearly TWICE that. Basically it's completely rediculous. I try and buy all my alpine clothing on sale.

 

[dbconlin]

Right now I have Merino Wool baselayer, Driclime, hardshell. It works, but it's a little heavy and not too breathable.

 

Heavy? Shouldn't be, unless maybe you need to upgrade to a lighter weight hard shell. This is essentially a softshell (driclime) set up, with a hardshell for when it gets nasty. There are full performance hard shells as light as 7 oz now, Patagonia makes a 10 oz hard shell that features stretch fabric (but costs $250).

 

...but why not just get a lightweight fleece pullover (like the R1) and then a houdini

 

Yes! This is essentially a softshell setup, if you define softshell to mean higher breathability and not fully waterproof. Although I don't think the houdini has much stretch and I'm not sure how form-fitting it is.

 

...but for glacier climbing, seems like you'd want a hardshell.

 

Why?

 

Depending on how you define softshell (patagonia makes the distinction between waterproof versus weather-resistant; others may distinguish based on having some sort of insulative quality and/or stretch; personally, I think Patagonia's definition makes for the most workable one, but then there is still alot of variability in the properties of both hardshells and softshells), I think the biggest advantages are breathability, form-fitting-ness, and stretch. However, as I mentioned, Patagonia makes a hardshell with stretch fabric, futher blurring the lines and weakening the case for softshells. Is it also form-fitting? If so, I would take a hard look at that option as it bypasses the main CON of softshells, which is weight (unless you count garments like the houdini, which seem like more of a wind shell than a softshell, but again it depends on the definition). Otherwise, almost every softshell is heavier than a comparable hard shell. The argument could be made that it takes the place of more than one layer, so maybe heavier weight is then made up for. It may depend on whether you choose a light shell style softshell (wind- and water-resistant, breathable, no insulative value) versus an insulated softshell (same qualitys plus insulative value, i.e. it replaces your fleece layer too).

 

I am a proponent of light shell type softshells, like the Patagonia Ready Mix, which is light but not as light as many hardshells. It is very windproof, very breathable, and quite water-resistant. Combine with varying amounts of baselayer depending on conditions, then add a belay jacket when not moving or conditions really suck.

 

Other fabric types with pros/cons that I have observed:

 

Windstopper adds a membrane, which reduces breathability, increases weather resistance, adds weight, and makes for less versatile but warmer piece. Same could probably be said for Scoeller WB400 which I have not used.

 

Schoeller Dryskin Extreme is awesome stuff, a bit heavy, but breathes very well, sheds weather very well, dries extremely fast, and is lightly insulating. Main disadvantage is wind-resistance, which is low and you would probably want an additional wind layer if conditions were very windy.

 

Schoeller Dynamic: very durable, moderately wind and water-resistant, not very insulating, kind of course feel/i.e. not very soft.

[HappyCamper]

Bump.

 

Anyone have the hybrid Beyond Fleece pants? Jay - sounds like you got someting like their Cold Fusion pants. Looking at something warm enough for some BC/glaciers/mild winter activities, but not too warm for spring and fall. Seems like Vayu Pant that has either Cold Fusion (WB-400) or Cold Play (Dry Skin Exreme) on the front and a less bomber/more breathable fabric for the rear might be a good mix. I'll probably give them a call, but thought I would see if anyone else had some experience.

[Pro Mountain Sports]

I’m still liking the most simple windpants. They are my hardshell although actually they are softshell because they’re not “waterproof”. My new ones (montbell) weigh 2.2 oz. and only come out when the conditions are really crummy or and/or windy.

[Jedi]

I love softshell (fabric that breathes but is not waterproof) materials.

I have the Hondini jacket for running and cycling. My take:

no pockets so it's not a great alpine jacket. The hood is not helmet compatible (dag!). When I cycle in temp's in the 20's, I feel the wind/air on my arms and chest at 15mph. As long as you are moving, ie... producing heat, you are fine. But with this in mind, if is substatially colder and more windy, you might want something in addition.

I LOVE how small this thing is when the sun comes up and it's time to shed it. Fits in one of my jersey or running pant pocket and leaves room for other stuff.

I wish they made a version that was helmet compatible (bigger hood). I wish someone did.

The closest thing I have found is Wild Things Epic Jacket at 10oz. Thinking this might be the jacket for trip to AK this summer.

 

The Patagonia MixMaster pant is my "do all" pant. Softshell that is insulated, breathes well, broad temperture range, dries very fast.

I have a pair of Arc'teryx Gamma salopette bibs in a medium if anyone wants them. Nice softshell. I have too many.

 

 

Jedi

[Tanner]

I love my soft shell stuff. MY Gamma SV have gone everywere with me and has been worth every penny!!! I also have a TNF Apex jacket for around town. For every day borring life stuff its perfect. Keeps me dry always (never in the rain very long) and once inside I'm still comfortable, and if the weather changes I don't have to change. Perfect

 

Outside, my rain shell seldom comes out of my pack. I get wet sometimes, life goes on, I dry out soon after the rain stops. In Goretex I would get damp from sweat anyway. Also when the rain stops I don't have to stop ditch the hard shell, get chilled and loose time. I just keep on going

Soft shell pants are amazing for most everything. Quick to dry, very breathable and more durable than hardshell.

 

Softshell is not a replacment for hardshell!!

 

 

Soft shell is Ideal for 80% of conditions. The other 20% is Gortex or suffering!

 

 

[dbconlin]

Soft shell is Ideal for 80% of conditions. The other 20% is Gortex or suffering!

 

I take a shoft shell for 100% of conditions when climbing. For backpacking, I still take a hardshell if there is any chance of extended periods of rain. Backpacking temps are warmer and any precip is likely to be liquid. Climbing the precip should be either 1. brief or 2. crystalline, for which softshell is perfect.