wfinley Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 So I was eating dinner tonight and thumbing through the new Patagonia catalog and in doing so i had some thoughts. First of all I realized that in thumbing through the new catalog all slick with wild photos of Steve House and other 'ambassadors' I realized I was really disillusioned with the catalog and with the company in general. I don't think this has anything to do with the Potter debacle - although their lag in response certainly made me think about the correlation between perceived environmental awareness and marketing hype. In all honesty I think I was already on my way to disillusionment some time back; and not only with Patagonia but with outdoor gear companies and climbing media in general. This in turn got me to thinking and wondering why I wasn't for example, in awe over House's FA; or in a state of product lust over the nifty new down sweater. At first I wrote it off to a maturity of sorts - in that I am getting older and thus less influenced by media hype and marketing. While I'd like to belive this all I really have to do is look in my gear closet and at last years bills to realize this isn't the case: new phat skis, shiney cobras (that - alas - did not make me climb like the people who post in the ice thread), a nice lightweight down vest and other things immediately pop into my mind. So i cannot truthfully say it is a dismissal of marketing hype and consumerism - if this was the case I'd still be climbing ice on my old Stubais and carving turns in my Silvretta 300s. I am instead attributing it to the rise of a new form of marketing (sorry - being a designer I think a lot about marketing)... this new form being more along the lines of a peer to peer network rather than traditional marketing in which the market establishes trends and then force feeds them to the public. The porn industry (who has always successfully managed to have their finger on the pulse of internet trends) figured this out years ago with 'amateurs'. The music and film industry are just now coming into their own in terms of indie music and film. And we're just now beginning to see new trends appear online (think lonelygirl). How does this relate to me and those on this forum? I think that the market is changing and that people are becoming less and less influenced by traditional media (i.e. - the Patagonia catalog and hype over a rad route by some professional athlete) and are instead being influenced by more of a peer network - i.e. CC.com. For example - when reading the House article in Patagonia I found myself equating those climbers with other professional athletes and in doing so I found myself dismissing their accomplishments. On the other hand - when I read about rad climbs by people in this forum - be it Colin and Jed's ascent on Mt. Moffit or Wayne's recent ascents in the Cascades. The same goes for gear. I could care less if some dude in Climbing mag tells me to use X piece of gear; but if someone starts a thread here and people chime in - then I'll start thinking about it. Anyone else think about this? Does anyone else think that these forums and dialog are changing their own perceptions of industry and role models. Discuss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 Paid Buzz "Q: I'm so enthusiastic in the prospects for word of mouth for my business, how do I build my own 24/7/365 word of mouth brand community for my brand/my client's brand? A: We will have somebody contact you and if interested, an account team will sit down in person with you and consult your branded footprint in the word of mouth space." You can bet there are several registered members of cc.com who are getting paid to recommend or generate hype about certain products and brands. This is the counterpart to the catalogue that isn't working for you anymore. fuck you viral marketers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 By the way I heard the new Sporty Widgets from West Pole Brand are the shit!!! Anyone got one yet? I'm so excited to see these new toys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wfinley Posted September 17, 2006 Author Share Posted September 17, 2006 Yeah - I'm fully aware of that; in the same way that the fashion industry has been sending out poeple dressed in whatever brands to whatever bars to flant a 'new style' for some time now. So you think it's happening here? Care to point to a thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 I know it's happening here. I got PMed insults and threats last time the subject came up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drater Posted September 17, 2006 Share Posted September 17, 2006 fuck you viral marketers Hey, a guys gotta eat. We can't all live in Chilliwack sucking the queens dick. FWIW, so far, cc.cum has been all about fun and not work. Then again, I don't have any clients that are targeting the dirbag loser demographic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Yeah - I'm fully aware of that; in the same way that the fashion industry has been sending out poeple dressed in whatever brands to whatever bars to flant a 'new style' for some time now. So you think it's happening here? Care to point to a thread? here's one that probably won't get me in too much shit here (it's from tt.com) scroll down to post from bigdaddy: http://www.telemarktalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=180663&sid=5f2eee640c9b702154113cf9ab8d7691 he's getting something from the company he pimped there. fo sho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drater Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Pretty weak effort by bigdaddy on that link, hope EcoSuck or whoever he's pimping doesn't pay him for that work. Dru, I find it interesting that you've received threats(insults are just par for the cc.com course) over outing virals. Some people obviously take their "work" too seriously. That being said, have you seen the new Revolution boldering pads, especially the 12 guage? OMFG, so off the hook. That fat puppy will cover any of the bolders in the Black Forest, and their landings....and their new line of holds? Holy shit, I've gained almost half of a letter grade in only three months of training on them. So awesome, go check them out!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bstach Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I know it's happening here. I got PMed insults and threats last time the subject came up. Care to share a few here? Thats gotta be good for some entertainment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dechristo Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I recall a credible threat to BenGay his Freshette. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowell_Skoog Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 First of all I realized that in thumbing through the new catalog all slick with wild photos of Steve House and other 'ambassadors' I realized I was really disillusioned with the catalog and with the company in general. I think your disillusionment is not with the medium, but with the idea of professional ambassadors. You're more interested in what somebody on cc.com does because you can relate to them. We're generally not professional climbers here. There's a big difference between climbing as a hobby and climbing as a profession. At least in minds of other climbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fern Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Every weekend just about I ban one or two newly registered users who are using the Yard Sale to shill something. I don't always notice the subtle ones though, and I am inclined to give benefit of doubt when I am unsure. It's not like product-reps or gear store owners or gear manfacturers are unwelcome here. They usually are welcome as long as they are forthcoming about their identity. The sneaky ones who are faking Gear Critic threads to 'discuss' whatever stuff they've been pro-dealed to talk up .... those guys aren't welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 First of all I realized that in thumbing through the new catalog all slick with wild photos of superstars and other 'ambassadors' I realized I was really disillusioned with the catalog and with the company in general. I don't think this has anything to do with the Potter debacle - although their lag in response certainly made me think about the correlation between perceived environmental awareness and marketing hype. In all honesty I think I was already on my way to disillusionment some time back; and not only with Patagonia but with outdoor gear companies and climbing media in general. You've described every Patagonia catalog produced since day 1. For the price they are still great entertainment - free vs. paying $5 at the newstands for some nice pictures and a trite story or two. Most bigname climbers have been professionals - i.e. it was their vocation - since the 60s. I've as much interest in 'amateur' climbers as 'amateur' porn. There's a few talented photogenic people producing good work who end up going quasi pro - and a ton of fat wannabes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 I think your disillusionment is not with the medium, but with the idea of professional ambassadors. You're more interested in what somebody on cc.com does because you can relate to them. We're generally not professional climbers here. There's a big difference between climbing as a hobby and climbing as a profession. At least in minds of other climbers. I agree with Lowell. If you learn that someone you might have just shared a beer with at Pub Club goes and climbs some incredible new route, you feel a connection to that person, and relate directly to their accomplishment. These are people who have to work in construction or in a laboratory or doing odd jobs to make a living and climb in their spare time. That they can do these great things means, in theory, you too could do great things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackers Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 You've described every Patagonia catalog produced since day 1. That's not true at all. I just finished going through twenty or thirty catalogs from 1986 till now and comparing the tone, style and embarassers count. This started gaining momentum in the late 90's, and the winter catalog is by far the furthest along. i schill my product cause i'm poor, not cause i think forums are the best medium for distribution of information. i think it's at least as good as a magazine for a penetration in a particular demographic--see jayb's post over in spray. but there are tons of demographics not present on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 You've described every Patagonia catalog produced since day 1. That's not true at all. I just finished going through twenty or thirty catalogs from 1986 till now and comparing the tone, style and embarassers count. This started gaining momentum in the late 90's, and the winter catalog is by far the furthest along. 'furthest along'? How so? For preaching on high I'm not sure anything can touch The Whole Art of Natural Protection (can anyone beat Doug Robinson?) If you are talking 'bro/brah' tone & style - forums trump the catalog everytime. And as I said, compared to 'Climbing' Shlock & Vice or the other magazines - Patagucci is tame (or at least free). Perhaps you are just disenchanted with the 'culture'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackers Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 'furthest along'? How so? First off, I'm not talking about Choinard Equipment, I'm talking about Patagonia. Different companies selling different things with different staff. I counted the ratio of stories in three broad categories: "bumbler", "environment" and "athlete" and the numbers of pictures of the patagonia athletes in the magazines over the time period I had access to. Bumbler stories used to be fairly common, and haven't appeared in years. Environment stories are done by professionals now, with the first one that I could find being the surfrider issue back in the mid 1990s. Athlete stories predominate the catalog now. They do, for me, make better reading than the magazines btw... In terms of pictures, the change is even more dramatic. About 80 to 95% of the pictures from the earlier catalogs in my sample were taken by people who don't turn up in stock catalogs, or in other words normal people. In the more recent catalogs, it's been 70 to 80% pictures of their athletes. Compare the kid's catalog to the adult catalog. The kids catalog has a totally different tone and approach, even though, presumabl, they're targeting the same demographic. I'm not disenchanted with anything, I'm studying the market leaders to learn from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 First off, I'm not talking about Choinard Equipment, I'm talking about Patagonia. Different companies selling different things with different staff. Same city, some of the same staff - same catalog lineage. In terms of pictures, the change is even more dramatic. About 80 to 95% of the pictures from the earlier catalogs in my sample were taken by people who don't turn up in stock catalogs, or in other words normal people. In the more recent catalogs, it's been 70 to 80% pictures of their athletes. Compare the kid's catalog to the adult catalog. The kids catalog has a totally different tone and approach, even though, presumabl, they're targeting the same demographic. I'd attribute that to a dearth of photographers willing to give away their work anymore. If it's good enough for the patagonia catalog they are good enough to be a pro - and thats what they become (or are already). Same for the writers. I can't think of any outdoor product catalog using amateurs (or any amateurs with quality work who remain that way) You don't see many amateurs at those levels of the media anymore - the barriers to becoming 'pro' are so low. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wfinley Posted September 18, 2006 Author Share Posted September 18, 2006 here's one that probably won't get me in too much shit here (it's from tt.com) Interesting... but when you search this guy's history the product he's hyping only comes up once. I think a better example of this is the control that certain forum moderators have over their members and the content their members post. For example... I know of one forum (no names) where if a person posts a product rep or spam of sorts, the moderator does not just delete the message or PM the poster - but instead posts a message (sometimes even a sticky) slamming that company and thus opening up a wave of criticism from forum members. Basically the moderate berates this person for repping gear and lays on a guilt trip about how the forum is made possible by sponsorship. In doing so the moderator effectively (a) slams the company with bad press, (b) unleashes the wrath of a member base that loves to flame and © pressures them to become a paid sponsor ... When they do become a paid sponsor the slam post disappears. In this sense the online forum (in terms of marketing gear) is similar to the new wave we're seeing with paid political bloggers. As far as disillusionment with professional climbers... what Lowell and others said makes sense except for one thing: if you climb a lot sooner or later you're going to be sharing a beer, flight or tent spot with a professional climber. 9 times of of 10 they're pretty nice and down to earth and the average climber can relate to them. In other words... i can relate to the individual - but not when he or she becomes a slick magazine presentation. However... if that same person were to post a message here... or send out a somewhat personalized email then it gives the perception of community; something print material cannot do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 Interesting... but when you search this guy's history the product he's hyping only comes up once. If you want a better example look at tele mark 's posts on telemarktips - he's plenty of good things to say about Trab skis - and will reccomend them to anyone. He's also the importer. There are at least a half dozen other shills who are allowed to persist there. I'd wager that's perhaps the forum you were thinking of? Goode skis had an 'anonymous' shill for them on TGR, and then there's the people who post links to products they are affiliated (movies they are producing) but never disclose they are affiliated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kix Posted September 18, 2006 Share Posted September 18, 2006 That being said, have you seen the new Revolution boldering pads, especially the 12 guage? OMFG, so off the hook. That fat puppy will cover any of the bolders in the Black Forest, and their landings.... ha dont even attempt to hype that BS crap brand by trying to associate it with true CORE places like the black forest and its extreme no bullshit crew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olyclimber Posted September 19, 2006 Share Posted September 19, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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