Jens Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 The raptor bolt on thing is 170 bucks for something that is really cheap and easy for BD to make. Any engineers care to way in? I bet it costs BD about 7 bucks to make a pair of these things. Cool piece of gear but not much to it to warrant the price. Quote
cj001f Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 WELCOME TO WORLD OF FUCKING CLIMBING GEAR! YOUR ICE TOOLS ARE ABOUT $20 TO MAKE! Quote
JayB Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 Does that include design, tooling, etc, etc, etc? Or are you talking fabrication costs alone? Â Quote
John Frieh Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 The raptor bolt on thing is 170 bucks for something that is really cheap and easy for BD to make. Any engineers care to way in? I bet it costs BD about 7 bucks to make a pair of these things. Cool piece of gear but not much to it to warrant the price. Â Please don't post when you are drunk. You sound like a moron. Â Too expensive? Make some in your garage since they only cost 7 bucks. Quote
pbelitz Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 That bullshit carl, and you know it. Â They cost about as much as the full crampon - which makes sense as it's the full crampon minus the bar between the heel and toe and the bails. Â Those front points are forged. The tooling to stamp the crampon body is undoubtedly very expensive; the heat treating can't be cheap either. Not to mention serious R&D and testing that goes into all their products. Go visit the BD factory some time, it's pretty impressive. Â Small-scale climbing gear manufacturing is not a lucrative business. Quote
cj001f Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 Does that include design, tooling, etc, etc, etc? Or are you talking fabrication costs alone? Total costs mentioned above, for a circa 2000 tool design, were in neighborhood of $50 - tool + pick at my friendly machine shop. (this was a mostly unoriginal design) Offshoring is of course cheaper. Liability, Marketing, Distribution etc. pushed it substantially higher. Â If I get a chance I'll try to access my old HD - it has a copy of a business school study of Black Diamond - their costs were slightly higher ($60-70) but the majority is still 'other'. Â No, it's not bullshit, it's just the retardation of evaluating something on the cost of manufacture, not on the 'total' cost. That shits dirt fucking cheap. If you'd like I could take you a tour of the machine shop whose owner quoted me those rates - it's way more impressive than BD Quote
Jens Posted September 15, 2006 Author Posted September 15, 2006 Ouch dude! That's the worst I've ever been flamed on cc! ------------------ How about an ice festival in state that doesn't really have any non alpine waterfall ice climbs (save a freak winter blast for a week or two) every now and then? How about a Phoenix ice festival next. Quote
John Frieh Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 So are you saying that people who live in states that don't have ice shouldn't be allowed to climb or have interest in it? Â You're a smart guy Jens... you know that it costs more than 7 dollars to make those crampons. Furthermore you know that whinning about it on cc.com does nothing for you or the price but it does make more work for the same guy(s) that brought you the rap wall. How many routes did you put up there? How many times have you climbed there? Â And why do think those guys don't post here? Because guys like you post whatever thought that runs through their head. Â Do Roj and BD a favor and quit whinning publically... if you really think BD is marking them up too much write a letter. Quote
cj001f Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 the same guy(s) that brought you the rap wall. How many routes did you put up there? How many times have you climbed there? Â Why should all buyers of BD crampons pay for that shit? I don't give a fuck about that - or 90% of the other causes BD donates money too. I'd be happier with cheaper gear. Quote
John Frieh Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 the same guy(s) that brought you the rap wall. How many routes did you put up there? How many times have you climbed there? Â Why should all buyers of BD crampons pay for that shit? I don't give a fuck about that - or 90% of the other causes BD donates money too. I'd be happier with cheaper gear. Â They didn't. What I am saying is the same guys who did put it up are the same guys Jens is hurting by publically whinning here. Â He asked for an engineer to weigh in and Paul and I did. Quote
cj001f Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 He asked for an engineer to weigh in and Paul and I did. I was unaware I'm not an engineer. Fuck, better stop using the Bridgeport and lathe to make actual product for actual companies as I have since the millenium I had the fucking work quoted - by a real machine shop, not an Intel employee and grad student - who are grossly overpaying. (to be fair the initial conversation was his son being shocked at how much ice tools cost - it progressed from their) Â Most of cost for outdoor gear is marketing and distribution. Quote
John Frieh Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 Yeah yeah I forgot... you too. Â But you of all people should know that just because a company can make something for 7 dollars or whatever we are claiming here doesn't mean they sale it for that. R&D, etc etc. You can't dispute that. Â Overpriced? Cassin and Grivel make some... perhaps Jens should exercise his right as a consumer and take advantage of other options on the market. Quote
cj001f Posted September 15, 2006 Posted September 15, 2006 R&D, etc etc. You can't dispute that. Â Definitely not - cost of manufacture (and development) is small compared to the other costs. The short reason why I never bothered to pursue making climbing gear further - no money for alot of work. Â Personally, I wouldn't mind to see marketing budgets shrink - but I sense that other climbers (including Jens) feel different. Quote
korup Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 I think BD pull-tests to failure something like 20% of all the pro they manufacture. I think the QC on other products is comparable- that adds up! The other option is something like the current Aliens debacle... Quote
catbirdseat Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 I am sure that korup could tell you all about the pharmaceutical industry and how unit costs are miniscule, whereas the development costs are huge. Quote
ChestBeater Posted September 28, 2006 Posted September 28, 2006 Do Roj and BD a favor and quit whinning publically. Â Yeah! Geeeeez! Why don't you consider the feelings of NOLSe's good pal buddy buddy "Roj"? Â Did you know that NOLSe knows "Roj" personally? Â "Roj" is a good climber. Â NOLSe knows him. Â Don't forget that. Â And don't say bad things about "Roj" or BD!!! Quote
scottgg Posted October 4, 2006 Posted October 4, 2006 Yeah! Geeeeez! Why don't you consider the feelings of NOLSe's good pal buddy buddy "Roj"? Quote
crackers Posted October 5, 2006 Posted October 5, 2006 vast majority of cost for outdoor gear is marketing and distribution. Â truer words were never written... Quote
PaulB Posted October 6, 2006 Posted October 6, 2006 Go visit the BD factory some time, it's pretty impressive. According to the interview here, you can now choose between visiting the factory in SLC or a brand new one in China. Quote
ashw_justin Posted October 7, 2006 Posted October 7, 2006 Silly consumer unit. It's not what it's worth that matters, it's how much we can exploit your pitiful human psychology to pay. PAY! You NEED IT! YOU NEED IT BAD! I will have you begging to buy men's panties from me for 200 dollars, if you do not be quiet now and PAAAYYYY!!! FEEEEED MEEE NOOOOW! Quote
BillA Posted October 14, 2006 Posted October 14, 2006 Haha, this is the gayest thread I've ever read. Quote
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