How do route "Grades" work?

[Blake]

ok, please keep this spray free:

 

When does a route "begin" and "end" for the sake of a commitment grade? Does the route begin when you hit the rock section that most parties would rope up for? How about for snow requiring crampons or with crevasse danger?

 

I remember when Mike Layton called the WA Pass traverse a grade VI and some people felt like when your route crosses a spot with a trail to it (such as Burgundy col) that you are no longer adding more time/commitment on to what you had previously done. If the descent of a climb is long and involved (ie getting off of Goode and back to the NE side of the mountain) does that change the commitment grade, or does the route grade stop at the summit? Should the grade of a route reflect the time it takes to get up the route and back to a certain spot, or just up to the top?

 

I guess this is all trickier for traverses that have no summit, or climbs like the "Plan B " that include a traverse after the summit itself as part of the descent.

 

I did a climb earlier this year that included a bivy atop a glacier, before the technical rock section which definitely took a full day, but I figured it was probably a grade IV because the glacier part didn't really get factored in. If glaciers are considered on-route 'technical terrain', then that would effect the time commitment/grade of many routes.

Are they?

 

 

If this has all been hashed out before, or its just too inherently subjective, then I guess it doesn't need to be discussed any more. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, I just want to figure out how it all works.

[Alpinfox]

I like the way Nelson/Potterfield give grades to both the technical climbing portion (which is typical) as well as the approach.

 

I'm one of those folks who believe that the Grade of a route should indicate the commitment level and difficulty of retreat to "non-technical" terrain, so I didn't think Layton's route was Grade VI.

 

I think it's hard to make any black and white definitions about these sorts of things though.

 

Edit:

 

This is a Grade VI:

[Blake]

Pax, would you think something like the Spontaneity arete should maybe be just a grade I then? (If you're not familiar, it's a 6 or 7 pitch route East of WA pass, but you can rap down into the descent gulley with one rappel at any time on the route.)

[Peter_Puget]

Just to be clear a "commitment" grade (eg Alaska grade) is different from the traditional grade scale. (ie a grade VI ala' Half Dome)

[layton]

The Washington Pass Traverse is a Grade 6 ridge traverse, not a wall climb. There are many places to bail on most ridge traverses of all grades, they are called "cols".

 

How high is the Diamond on Bear? I bet it's easily bailed off of. Still a grade VI?

 

Get my point? Grades I-VII are about legnth of climbing.

 

The Blob route erik and i did was a grade III+ climb with a II ridge traverse to get off. But you gotta do both. However, some climbs are easy to get up and hard to get down...like the Beckey route up Nooksak Tower. With the descent, I'd call it a grade IV, but it's only a grade III getting up it (if that).

 

 

I only count time climbing where you could fall and die if unroped. So glacier approaches count as part of the climb. Traverses count too.

 

Ridge travereses are the ultimate in contrived routes, but you are climbing the whole time so the regular grades should apply.

 

As far as commitment grades go, man you break your leg doing old snowy in winter, you're way more fucked than on the Nose on El Cap. Old Snowy is still a grade I/II and the Nose is still a grade VI.

[chris]

Just to be clear a "commitment" grade (eg Alaska grade) is different from the traditional grade scale. (ie a grade VI ala' Half Dome)

 

Not exactly, Pete. The distinction between a Grade VI and a Grade VII wall is not its length, but its access. That's why an El Cap size wall in Baffin is a VII. So I believe that commitment does get factored into traditional grades, but is only a factored in when distinguishing between V, VI, and VII.

 

Any Alpine Grade, be it Alaskan, Kiwi, or French, give commitment a much higher value. Commitment may be defined as the time/distance from definitive aid or assistance. This could be a road, technical rescue arriving, etc.

 

I always though that it went something like:

I - less than 2 hours

II - 2-4 hours

III - 4-8 hours

IV - 8-12 hours

V - 12-18 hours, probably overnight

VI - at least one night, probably more

VII - multiple nights on route, definitive assistance greater than 24 hours away

These grades only factor in 1) the speed of a competent, traditional party unless otherwise described, and 2) the route of ascent, not descent.

 

And I agree - I like the Select Cascade practice of adding a grade to the hike. It helps me when I'm considering how much time I have to get out.

[ClimbingPanther]

ok, please keep this spray free:

 

Spray is always free!

 

I think they should have a separate grading system for every factor imagineable. Last week, I sent a VIx19a-3.4uiFF06+++ with a 0fa1189.4'- approach

[Peter_Puget]

 

The VII is a add on of the traditional system. There is certainly a clear logical discontinuity between 1-6 and 7. In fact when I first started climbing I can't recall even seeing a grade VII. The definition of the Alaska grades is down below:

 

Alaska Grade: (per AAC)

 

 

1: Easy glacier route.

2: Not technical, but exposed to knife-edged ridges, weather, and altitude.

3:Moderate to hard, including some technical climbing.

4: Hard to difficult.

5: Difficult, with sustained climbing, high commitment, and few bivouac sites.

6: Sustained hard climbing over thousands of vertical feet; high commitment.

[chris]

Again, I don't think alpine grades apply to Blake's question. Blake, you're asking about the "traditional" grade system, right?

[Peter_Puget]

I was just making sure the distiction was clear.

[chris]

We have similar alpine grades in New Zealand - Blake can tell you all about them, since he's been there more recently than I.

[Mos_Chillin]

I always though that it went something like:

I - less than 2 hours

II - 2-4 hours

III - 4-8 hours

IV - 8-12 hours

V - 12-18 hours, probably overnight

VI - at least one night, probably more

VII - multiple nights on route, definitive assistance greater than 24 hours away

 

Exactly!

 

But Blake, rock and snow/ice grades are a bit different.

 

From Alpinist:

 

I-II: 1 or 2 pitches near the car, but may need to be avoided during avalanche season.

III: Requires most of a day including the approach, which may require winter travel skills (possible avalanche terrain, placing descent anchors).

IV: A multipitch route at higher altitude or remote location.Multi-hour approaches in serious alpine terrain.

V: A full-day climb in alpine terrain with a long approach, long technical descent, and objective dangers.

VI: A long waterfall with the character of an alpine route; formerly required at least a day to complete, now often done faster. Significant alpine objective hazards.

VII: Under discussion.

[Jens]

The system isn't perfect for Cascade routes but it works.

A Euro "ED" style system may be a bit better. I personally don't care for traversing a bunch of summits or enchaining a bunch of Cascade routes just for the sake of calling it one "big new route". That being said, I love doing alpine enchainments though, but am hesitant to give them one grade. Somewhere in my head, how many hours I spend actually doing the technical climbing portions factors in. Not to chestbeat but...For instance, I've spent about 4 hours on the technical portions of the NE butt of Slesse which has been called VI many years ago and about 15 on the techincal portions my "CK" route on Johannesburg which I call grade V. I kinda liked the system Jeff Smoot made up for his cascade volcano guide- A 1-5 system that took in many factors. The way he had it presented in the front made perfect sense to me. I guess I've always really liked his guidebooks.

[Rad]

So if the upper North Ridge of Stuart is IV what grade you'd give for the full North Ridge? (Dirty Harry, you know which line I'm talking about)

 

It felt longer than Backbone (given IV+),

and longer than Northeast Buttress Upper Cathedral (benchmark Yosemite IV).

 

not that it really matters...but I'm curious.

[Sol]

So if the upper North Ridge of Stuart is IV what grade you'd give for the full North Ridge?

One thing you have to remember about grades is that there totally made up. It depends on your experience on the route which can vary drastically from party to party. A friend and i climbed the complete N Ridge of Stuart this year in 7:45, base of route to summit. I'd give it a IV+. Though we descended the somewhat tedious NW buttress to get down, and it took a few hours, it really had nothing to do with the route on the NR and should not get equated into its grade. The late Guy Edwards climbed the complete NR in oct 2001 car to car in 6:47. Wonder what kinds grade he would have given it?

[Rad]

Any Peter Croft might do it in an hour...

 

Granted, some will climb faster or harder than others. We each work out our own pacing relative to the times in Nelson/Beckey and plan accordingly.

 

I thought the whole point of ratings was that they were intrinsic to the route, derived from consensus, not subject to up or downgrading based on the ability of each climber.

[TrogdortheBurninator]

Seems that upper N. Ridge of stuart is somewhat of a weird anomoly given the the gendarme variation. With the by pass the route goes somewhere between 5.4-5.6 depending on source. A 5.6 climber might be inclined to pitch out the entire ridge, making for something like 15-20 pitches and grade IV. Someone climbing the gendarme will probably simul most of the ridge climbing maybe 5-10 pitches total (most easy), which is maybe III+. Seems funny that the harder variation might realistically result in an easier grade.

[Blake]

Again, I don't think alpine grades apply to Blake's question. Blake, you're asking about the "traditional" grade system, right?

 

I was talking about the traditional grade system used to describe how long a route will take.

[gosolo]

I think it is pretty difficult to compare Mountain Rock Climbs with those in the well travelled areas. Alpinfox says to use commitment level. Yes, I suppose. However, the Nose is (was?) the Grade VI in America. However, retreating off that is not too difficult. I bailed from the Great Roof, 2,000 feet off the deck on my first attempt and it took 3 hours. Hardly a high committment level for a well rounded team. Factoring this in I think that the Whine Spires Ridge Traverse is a Grade VI. I am sure there are places on the route that offer a higher degree of committment than current trade routes in places like Zion, Yos and others. Over the years, the grades and sometimes the climbs themselves change and morph over time. If you go by the fastest ascent time of routes there are few grade VI's left on El Cap. But that aint fair for us wankers...

[G-spotter]

 

I always though that it went something like:

I - less than 2 hours

II - 2-4 hours

III - 4-8 hours

IV - 8-12 hours

V - 12-18 hours, probably overnight

VI - at least one night, probably more

VII - multiple nights on route, definitive assistance greater than 24 hours away

 

These are soft grades.

 

The Supertopo's have a good list or check FOTH. But basically:

 

I: a single pitch. Rarely used

II: a short climb of a few pitches: a couple (2-5)hours

EG; Beckey route on Lib Bell, or Diedre

III: A "half day climb." Typically 5-8 hours. eg: any of the face routes on Nesakwatch Spire; Yak Crack; any of the west face routes on the Early Winter Spires

IV: An "all day climb". Bivis are possible for the slow. More than 8, less than about 16 to 20 hours. All day means starting and usually finishing by headlamp on the longest day of the year... Examples: north ridge of Clarke, SE Butt on Slesse.

V: a one or two bivi climb, although fast parties with beta can do them in a day. EG: NE Butt of Slesse is low in the grade (more like a long IV but people often do end up bivying). Navvy wall or East Buttress of Slesse are more typical.

VI: more than two bivis. The Nose on El Cap is the typical example.

VII: a big wall in a very remote setting at high altitude. There are no Grade VIIs in continental North America, by definition. Grade VII is confined to Himalaya, Karakoram, biggest faces on Baffin, hardest walls in Patagonia, etc - stuff that takes a month of hard aid every day to climb. Grand Voyage on Trango Tower is the prime example. There are no Grade VIIs in the Cascades, Yosemite, or Coast Mountains and by definition there cannot be.

 

It does get confusing when a climb that was done on aid and rated for that gets freed. Free climbing is much faster and the rating properly should drop to reflect this - for instance Lotus Flower Tower was given VI as an aid route but now gets V as a free climb.

[G-spotter]

I have heard it argued that Angels Crest & Squamish Buttress are Grade IV but they seem more like upper end IIIs really. But you can apparently claim them as IVs when preparing your Climbing Resume and application form to become a Mountain Guide .

 

I guess there have been numerous bivis on Angels Crest over the years too. No one since Beckey has bivied on Squamish Butt though.

[chris]

Nice G - I liked your definitions!

[RemoWilliams]

IV: An "all day climb". SE Butt on Slesse.

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone even doing this route much less enough for it to stand as a "known" referrent for the grade

[G-spotter]

You must not get out much.

[chris]

OK crew, I was packing up for my migration north, and came across this insert from the American Alpine Club in last year's Journal. This is a direct quote, including bold and italicized fonts.

National Climbing Classification System (USA):

NCCS grades, often called "commitment grades," indicate the time investment in a route for an "average" climbing team.

I and II: Half a day or less for the technical (5th class) portion of the route.

III: Most of a day of roped climbing.

IV: A full day of technical climbing.

V: Typically requires an overnight on the route, or done fast and free in a day.

VI: Two or more days of hard climbing.

VII: Remote walls climbed in alpine style.

Again, this is quoted from the American Alpine Club. Please don't hurt me if you disagree with this quote.