gosolo Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Everyone probably has a different perspective from their learning environment. You and your buddy could learn the exact same way from the exact same guide and still end up with some different perspectives. As far as general guidelines I learned in the 70’s mostly through basic and advanced rockcraft with Royal Robbins as my initial “text” books. Here are a couple old school perspectives. First, if you don’t fall on the climb, then the descent will be perhaps more dangerous and especially so if you are rapping. Rappeling can be dangerous and if you don’t fall on your climb then it is the only time you will be weighting your safety net system. Therefore, things must be checked and double checked. I have rarely used knots in the end of ropes and rarely used prusik back-ups. Instead, use the brakehand, and KNOW where the end of the rope is. This has served me well even when backing off the Nose from the Great Roof, some 20 rappels in bad weather. The other thing some of us old schoolers think about is falling. I do remember the (sometimes appropriate) saying that the leader must not fall and sometimes that is the best protection. While things have progressed, the simple fact is that if you don’t fall and don’t rappel, the rope is simply along for the ride and was an extra. Note that this is counter to Gym and Sport Climbing. So many people are out there thinking that the rope will save them whenever their protection system is weighted that it becomes second nature to depend upon that. Case in point, a climber was climbing a route I put up in Arkansas over 14 years ago. It was a long run to the first bolt. Since this was a sport climb I am sure that the climber was depending upon that bolt to be good. Note that the crux of the route was above the third bolt or so. The climber fell and the rock surrounding the bolt broke. When I analyze the accident, I see 3 things wrong. First is that the rock is sandstone and should have been suspect. Second, if you only have one thing between the ground and you, then care must be taken cuz you aint got no backup. Third, if the climber had been climbing more within his level I doubt he would have fallen there. This third point is lost on many. If you don’t fall then your ascent will be safe in the end. I believe that this second nature of trusting the rope has caused more accidents than the second nature of not falling and believing that your protection system is suspect unless you are very sure. While this statement may seem totally ridiculous to the seasoned sport climber, it is important for the newb. For it is the newb who may not be able to judge safety. My guess is that you guys who fall a lot are not newbs and have some idea of when it is safe to go for it. I am not saying that one cannot learn to depend upon the rope. Rather I am saying that the way gym climbers are taught presents them with confidence in the rope and belay system and sometimes that confidence is not warranted, and or not respected as much as it should be. Since this thread was about the newb, I believe that the self-preservation of the old school ways prevent more accidents than what is taught in a gym. I also think this is why many people can climb more difficult sport climbs than they can trad climbs (difficulties and strenuousness of pro aside). I don’t know if this young teacher’s tragic death was due to the transition from gym and sport to multipitch stuff. But I do think a healthy and different respect can prevent accidents. Sorry for being long winded but many of you are trying to put your experience to the newb. That is the problem. Many newbs don't have your experience to go on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 that is the long version of what i've been saying all along...you must use your brain first! dogma is not gonna save you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I'd say it is a little more than that, Rudy. More than simply "using your brain," he is talking about a shift in orientation. You are right, though, that "using your brain" will go a long way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 It sure as hell wasn't the rope or belay system that failed. The same accident could have happened on a single pitch sport climb like the guy who died at Vantage last year. So there is no sport/trad thing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 (edited) I'd say it is a little more than that, Rudy. More than simply "using your brain," he is talking about a shift in orientation. You are right, though, that "using your brain" will go a long way... no, he's saying exactly what i'm saying... Wouldn't you say that blind belief in rope and gear and bolts always working ala sportclimbing is a form of dogma?????? In fact, its as dogmatic in the other direction as the ol' mantra "the leader shall not fall"... either one is not appropriate for every case... I'm learning alot about teaching this stuff because I'm working with my oldest child now...he's venturing into climbing and before i tell him "do this" i always make HIM tell me what should happen and why to make him THINK...BTW, he's almost seven and displays a lot more judgement than a lot of the idiots on this board do... Edited July 5, 2006 by RuMR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 It sure as hell wasn't the rope or belay system that failed. The same accident could have happened on a single pitch sport climb like the guy who died at Vantage last year. So there is no sport/trad thing here. BINGO...the jellyfish scored a point... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gosolo Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 It sure as hell wasn't the rope or belay system that failed. The same accident could have happened on a single pitch sport climb like the guy who died at Vantage last year. So there is no sport/trad thing here. I agree with ya. I wonder if there was a gym - real climbing thing though. In a gym everything is all set up and raring to go. Regardless, it is a tragic thing and I hate to hear about these accidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirtyHarry Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 DOUBLE CHECK EVERYTHING ALWAYS!! Or in my case - smoke pot check knot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bwrts Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 pack before you pack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 pack before you pack go before you go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minx Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 doesn't this all come down to learning/gaining some knowledge as much as using your brain?? it's all well and good to be spouting off about "using your brain" but if you don't know what to look for how would you know that you're about to fuck up? in this accident it sounds like it might've been pretty obvious but that's not always the case. i've told the story many times of encountering some gym climbers in trouble at smiffy. DH had to "rescue" one of them. They came complete with a crossloaded carabiners on the edge of cliff for their anchor, no knowledge of a prussik or any other useful knot, and limited knowledge of their belay device. They just didn't know what to do. Some of it seemed really obvious to me but it probably wasn't if no one had taught them. Unfortunately, some of the learning process involves going out and doing it. Hopefully people find knowledgable mentors. Lets face it, we've all been lucky at least once and their isn't always someone their who knows. Everyone talks about needing to push themselves in order to get better. Well for some folks pushing themselves involves going outside. There's a lot to learn but it comes down to more than just "using your brain". Hell i'm so tired half the time my brain doesn't work that well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 I am no expert but i do have a few things to say on the Subject. when i started climbing the first thing i did was buy a book right after i got my harness. I climbed with someone who had experience. i asked alot of dumb questions and still do. I even ask dumb questions here... if someone can't take a little ribbing than maybe they don't realy want to climb. at least not bad enough to get over the fact that everyone feels stupid when they are learning. i was realy lucky, i spent the begining of my climbinb career surrounded by climbers of all kinds. i read every thing i could get my hands on. i walked up to people at crags and asked them why they were doing what they were doing (as far as the set up) and if they would show me. if someone wants to climb bad enough they will work out how. i asked for belay's i asked people if they would climb with me. i worked at it. i am not an athletic person at all. but this is and was important to me so i worked my ass off physicaly, mentaly and emotionaly to get it. now i am not a great leader as i am not bold, but i do understand the mechanics. I have not climbed alot of multi pitch and when i go i will make sure i go with someone who has done it before and i will sure as shit be watching my rope and paying attention to as many details as humanly possible. if you are a beginer get a fucking mentore and read a fucking book or 12. i am not joking. climbing is IMHO not something you just go do. it is something you must learn. it is a skill that one must cultivate. and if you are not willing to put in the time and you just want to jump on the rock because you think you are a superstar jock who can do any sport, well fuck you. eventualy you will fuck up and die. climbing is was and always will be a thinking persons sport. if the day ever comes where gear can garentee you will never die than climbing will no longer be climbing, it will be golf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONK Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Well put Muffy ! I agree with You ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter_Puget Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Without giving it much thought I can think of several very experienced NW climbers who have been involved in near misses, serious or sometimes fatal accidents from rappel or lowering accidents. Some of the better known “public” names: Jim Madsen, Greg Child. Some people I am thinking of post on this board. The “old school v new school”, “sport v. trad”, “cragsters v alpinists” analysis seem to be useful methods to create a “us v. them” structure where the “us” comes out on top and the “thems” are the accident prone gumbies. Sure accidents can be the result of a lack of skills but their number is inconsequential compared the number of accidents caused by a moment of inattention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Sure accidents can be the result of a lack of skills but their number is inconsequential compared the number of accidents caused by a moment of inattention. More important than 'skills' is attention to detail and developing a consistant, error correcting, method for performing critical tasks. Gyms don't teach that, neither do clubs, that's a personal trait... that society is not reinforcing. And PP is correct - there are a great many 'good' climbers who've been hurt, injured or died in rap accidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gosolo Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 doesn't this all come down to learning/gaining some knowledge as much as using your brain?? it's all well and good to be spouting off about "using your brain" but if you don't know what to look for how would you know that you're about to fuck up? Everyone talks about needing to push themselves in order to get better. Good Points. That last one illustrates what I was tryin to say. What does it mean to get better? In the context of gym and sport it means higher grades. I would argue that safety becomes so routine in these situations that it becomes an afterthought. Safety is presumed. Bolts, TR's the objective of the gym and sport is improving the grade you climb or movement and strength. It is typically not to improve ones ability to face outdoor situations. My theory is that climbers who have this background need to shift gears (like mattp said) to recognize that until they get the requisite experience they must be more careful out there. I think this is why many beginning climbers have such a discrepancy between their trad and sport levels. They recognize there are different things going on and use their fear (in a good way) to regulate their climbing ability. I am not saying one way of learning is better than another. And while I may be coming off as a safety nazi, that is really far from the truth. It is just that learning 30 years ago placed an importance on having some understanding that on many routes falling was not a desired option. Therefore, the belief that safety was a given was also not there. The safety on an R or X route is in ones head and having the abiliity to know when not to fall (as well as protecting what is given you). I dont know what happened in this accident. But I do believe that ultimtely, when one learns in the gym, they must shift their way of thinking outdoors. Ultimately, to get better as an all around climber (trad, sport walls, alpine, ice), one must have a multitude of skills and judgement. What serves one well on difficult sport climbs may not be so good on a poorly protected route in the back country. Damn, thats a lot of hot air coming out on the keyboard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gosolo Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 I agree with PP and cj, and not condoning us vs them, we are afterall all climbers, gumbies and experts alike! Even the expert is a gumby when he is out of his environment. However, I do believe that the gym and sport atmosphere more easily breeds that inatttention to detail in safety than climbing outdoors multipitch. And I too have seen the experienced climber screw up. This thread was about the newb transitioning to outdoors, and I am opining? in that context. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 all the more reason not to belong to just one camp or school of thought...oftentimes, the gym produces far superior "moving" skills...precisely what is needed on runout scrambling 5.EZ shit that is not protectable, while prescribing to the mountaineer school of thought of trad only climbing will get you in trouble on scrambles due to slowness and ineptitude... one must engage in all aspects of climbing, from bouldering to hard sport climbing, to crack climbing to delicate slab climbing to become competent on rock. one dogma or form of climbing is no better nor worse than another... one oughta be able to flash consistently at one level regardless of the style of climbing... Anyway, that's all i've got to say... PP is the most correct poster yet on this board when he says that it is a moment of inattentiveness that ultimately will kill you; and yes minx, i think it all boils down to using your brain...even if that means saying "you know, i don't know what the hell i'm doing and i need to go get somebody to show me"...if you are stupid/ignorant/or uninformed you are going to die in certain environments unless you got lucky or believe in the grace of god...deal with it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 I agree with everyone. Thank you for allow Fox to post on meaningful website discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 go back to bejing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 CODE RED CODE RED! ONE MUST MAINTAIN 104% VIGILENCE AT ALL TIMES! Every MILISECOND! you could DIE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 Rudy makes a good point when he says that to master rock climbing, one must spend time on a variety of types of climbs. In that vein, I'd say that the climber looking to transition from the gym to outside climbing would probably learn more from first following someone on some old school trad crack climbs and slab routes and then working toward leading them than they would from simply moving to bolted climbs like the one that started this discussion: Condormorphamine. Even if they don't aspire to becoming the Index crack master or the runout slab dancer, they will learn skills that will really help on a variety of climbs including those more like the bolted gym routes they are used to - including Condomorphamine. Even if they don't want to continue chasing after climbs that wander around, require building your own belay anchors, developing rope signals to handle the possibility of not being able to see or talk to your partner from one end of the rope to another, lacing together several sketchy pieces of pro to protect some runout crux, or evaluating where to set a belay amid a pile of choss, these experiences will go a long way to teach you "what to think about" and how a momentary lapse in attention can be deadly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 CODE RED CODE RED! ONE MUST MAINTAIN 104% VIGILENCE AT ALL TIMES! Every MILISECOND! you could DIE! that's millisecond...you just bit it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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