goatboy Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 In the recent Mt Hood accident, the KOMO website attributes the following quotes to some of the rescuers: It was a day when you should have been a little more cautious," he said. "They were doing eveyrthing right, but sometimes somebody slips. It's an accident, it's not anybody's fault." It was too icy for the trio to brake or halt their slide with their climbing equipment, Broms said. I wonder why the tendency is often to say that there was nothing wrong with the way people managed the climb rather than analyzing what happened and potentially learning from it. For example, in this case, it sounds like the conditions were icy, parties were climbing right above other parties, and a single slip brought down several rope teams. Couldn't we infer that in fact there were some other choices that folks could have made in that situation that would have prevented the accident? Such as placing running protection, waiting for other parties to clear out of the chute, etc??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Because they don't want to be accused of slander or libel. For example, see http://www.komotv.com/stories/43988.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 It also doesn't feel so good to kick people while they are down, on national television. Try explaining the concept of running protection to a news reporter so it will show up accurately on the 5 min 11pm piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Couldn't we infer that in fact there were some other choices that folks could have made in that situation that would have prevented the accident? Such as placing running protection, waiting for other parties to clear out of the chute, etc??? How about climb without a rope on technical ground unless you're willing to place protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Gary: It would not be slander to offer an opinion such as "in my view, it is not a good idea to climb icy slopes without a belay... blah blah blah. That is a statement of opinion. It might be slander to say "that kid died because he violated a rope closure" when in fact he did not. It is only slander when the statement is false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshK Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Honestly, it's a bit more fair to the rest of us if rescuers and the news were MORE critical of climbers in accidents. I'd rather they exaplin that, in this case, somebody probably did make a very poor judgement call, rather than allow the "climbing is randomly dangerous" perception to linger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpineK Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I don't want some idiot reporter who doesn't know his head from his ass commenting on climbing. In reality it takes longer than the news cycle to come up with a real analysis of an accident of any type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipmunk Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 In the Fox newscast this morning, they made mention of their anchor pulling out, while showing they guy who was able to walk out holding his picket. Strangely enough they didn't talk about the other teams they fell into or the rope they sliced through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Maybe they should just give a link to cc.com and say that everything you need to know can be found here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllYouCanEat Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I was on the Pearly Gates last weekend. What I saw were too many inexperienced climbers. Sometimes entire rope teams with maybe one experienced climber, many not even that. I waited and rested until most had come down. What I saw was disturbing. Climbers screaming from fear, shivering from it, and entirely gripped. To me this means that they shouldn’t be there. The slope is very moderate. An easy walk up and down as long as you know good crampon technique. Ninety percent of these people did not. There were teams that took over two hours to downclimb (all facing slope) a few hundred feet. This place will always be a scary place to be. The reason I was there was because I wanted to take a newby climber up, and it was on the way back from Smith. In the future I will look at other routes on Hood or on different mountains. The Hogsback is not a safe place to be this time of year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnBoy Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 A couple of points, 1. Television reports are worthless for educational purposes since they are intended for entertainment of the massess enthralled with televsion picutures "live from the summit". The primary focus of the story is getting out the latest word and footage in time for the 6 or 11 news. No education. 2. PMR does a good job of accident analysis and usually writes up a report on their web site. Additionally the climbing rangers often give pretty good hazardous condition assessment and posts it in the registry. 3. The best tools are the critiiques of the climbers and rescuers themselves that often get written up in the annual AAA accidents guide. 4. Resources such as Cascade Climbers is a great venue for education for the intended audience. This give good experience to aspiring climber so that when they have to make an important decision, they have more than their own experience to draw from. My 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragingturk Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I think what I'm about to suggest will enrage a lot of people, but I should: Having been on the spot of this accident and knowing the amount of traffic and average experience of people who attempt to summit on a given weekend day, perhaps there should be more drastic measures to prevent these text-book, repeat accidents. (risking the lives of rescuers and tax money) In fact, I'll go so far to suggest fixing a line from the schrund to the top of the Pearly Gates. The climbing community (guiding companies, etc) could help maintain the lines and novices can just clip in and avoid incidents where they not only harm themselves but others. So what, guides on MtRanier do similar things all the time. I know people will think that this will make the place a zoo. But come on it already is. And if you don't wanna be part of it, just do one of the easy variations on the left face off the Hogsback. (avoid the whole zoojam). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jordop Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Reservations and permits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Let's put in a summit cable ride! With pony rides and ballons for the kids. Safe AND fun outdoor activities for the whole family. And a store selling T-shirts where the cable car terminates which say "I climbed to the top" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaskadskyjKozak Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 In fact, I'll go so far to suggest fixing a line from the schrund to the top of the Pearly Gates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 I can see the value in this idea, thought it raises questions about managing it. Pickets tend to melt out, who would be responsible if the fixed line failed? Do parties going up have prioirity over parties going down it? Anyway, it would solve some problems while creating others...in the end, people need to have the judgment and skills to manage themselves on the terrain they choose to climb. Even a fixed line there could be mis-used or could create more traffic problems if not managed well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Maybe they should just give a link to cc.com and say that everything you need to know can be found here. Fixed line on the hogsback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragingturk Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I can see the value in this idea, thought it raises questions about managing it. Pickets tend to melt out, who would be responsible if the fixed line failed? Do parties going up have prioirity over parties going down it? Anyway, it would solve some problems while creating others...in the end, people need to have the judgment and skills to manage themselves on the terrain they choose to climb. Even a fixed line there could be mis-used or could create more traffic problems if not managed well. I see and agree with your points. In fact, personally I wouldnt want to see fixed ropes up there for cosmetic reasons. I'm just trying to spark some creative thinking. How many more times does the same accident need to happen? OK we want to maintain the wildernees feeling and promote self-reliance. But come on, there is a ski lift a mile away, all mechanized. Pickets wouldn't work obviously. How about steel cables similar to via-ferrata routes in the Alps? That stuff is very common in Europe. You can't stop the people from going up there, but at least increase the safety factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Yngve Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Here's another bold/creative idea. Let people get hurt/killed on the route. Eventually the bad reputation will keep people away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragingturk Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Let's put in a summit cable ride! With pony rides and ballons for the kids. Safe AND fun outdoor activities for the whole family. And a store selling T-shirts where the cable car terminates which say "I climbed to the top" Given the traffic on MtHood don't be surprised if that happens soon. You should see the zoo on top of MtWashington in the summer over here. The other year there were these guys from Starbucks with their green aprons serving coffee samples on the summit of Ranier and videotaping the thing. I wanted to kick their asses down the cone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foraker Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I don't want to 'increase the safety factor'. I want to start trundling boulders to teach some fools about assessing objective hazards and having some skills. The 'safer' you make things, the more people will come to underestimate the risks which will lead to more injuries and deaths than you might have otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goatboy Posted June 19, 2006 Author Share Posted June 19, 2006 Here's another bold/creative idea. Let people get hurt/killed on the route. Eventually the bad reputation will keep people away. I hear ya -- but how well is that strategy working so far??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan_forester Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I don't want to 'increase the safety factor'. I want to start trundling boulders to teach some fools about assessing objective hazards and having some skills. The 'safer' you make things, the more people will come to underestimate the risks which will lead to more injuries and deaths than you might have otherwise. ...and the more crowded the mountains will get, and the less safe... personal responsibilty via-ferratta-style-fixed-cables-on-the-hogsback-or-anywhere-else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 Here's another bold/creative idea. Let people get hurt/killed on the route. Eventually the bad reputation will keep people away. _____________________________________________________________ Suspecting that you are being smarmy and reading between the lines: If your suggestion Gary, is that we should sanitise a sport with is by it's nature unsafe, then shouldn't we also then pick put the top 10 most dangerous climbs throughout the Pac NW and then sanitise them as well? I understand that in fact, Cooper Spur, my favorite route on Hood, is also the most likely to get you killed. More so that the South side. Would you propose a fixed line and monitors there as well? -then- In the likely even you have a large hoard of people at some future point show up to get on both routes and the weather turns bad, could you imagine the death toll you will have gendered to create as this group of noobs, who were led by well-intentioned people such as yourself to believe this climb(s) safe, swamps the system and resources you have establised on that bad-weather day from hell? -then- This means you would have to be the arbiture of who can climb and when. Do you see where this is going? Sorry, but my vision differs from yours. Opps, just re-read and you may have been serious. In that case: apologies extended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashw_justin Posted June 19, 2006 Share Posted June 19, 2006 I don't think Gary was being facetious...(?) Who'd a thunk yah could fall off a mountin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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