billcoe Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 Mikey said: I've got no problem with a long alpine sport climb (yes it's an alpine climb, it climbs a peak). Alpenclippin is a hell of a lot of fun. Also it does seem like the bolts weren't overboard. The main problem was that it was done in a wilderness area. But what's done is done, and if it's a fun route then let's leave it be. The problem I have with it is (and correct me if I'm wrong): Didn't Doorish already do this route earlier, sans bolts? So basically this is a retrobolted climb? If so, then I think every bolt should be chopped. So is this a retrobolted climb? Oh oh, the plot thickens. Can all this wait until I do the route? Guess I need to get off my ass and roadtrip. My standards are obviously lower than lots of other peoples.
Weekend_Climberz Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 Dude, you should probably take his address off of that
chris Posted June 15, 2006 Posted June 15, 2006 Wow. I've never seen that black and white photo before. Thanks Mark! I tried to line up the B&W photo with the R&I photo, and compared Preiss' route description with the IB topo, and tossed in my experience on IB as well. This is what I got. 1. Preiss exits the West Peaks FA 1963 route and joins IB at the top of pitch 6. I still believe that he did not climb pitches 1-6. 2. Preiss' pitches 1-3, in photos, appears to follow IB pitches 7-9. However, his description of these pitches doesn't match up, describing it as 5.7/5.8 ramps and steps. IB pitch 8 is 5.9+ and steep. It is possible that Preiss climbed what is now IB pitch 7, continued to follow the ramp past the beginning of IB pitch 8, and then doubled back. In effect, IB pitch 8 cuts the corner of the Preiss route. Since Preiss pitch 1/IB pitch 7 is easy 5th class, and Preiss pitch 3/IB pitch 9 is 5.7/5.8, this is very possible. 3. In the B&W photo, the Preiss route clearly follows the lower angle, greener ledges to the left of IB, avoiding the 5.9 and 5.10- pitches of IB. IB rejoins the Preiss route at pitch 15 (Preiss pitch 7). Since the big tree at the top of the 4th class bowl is prominent in both route descriptions, I believe both routes follow a similar line. From the top of the 4th class bowl the routes once again diverge. I conclude that IB follows five pitches of the Preiss route. Specifically, pitches 1, 3, and 8-10 of the Preiss Route is also climbed by pitches 7, 9, and 15-17 of IB. Preiss' claim to the FA of this face is erroneous, though his route (and IB's) tops out on a secondary summit of West Peak. In 1963 a team of three climbed the face in February, establishing the first ascent and the first winter ascent of the south face of West Peak Mt. Garfield. Preiss did, however, establish a bold new line, and possibly the first solo ascent (I haven't been able to verify Doorish's ascent).
chris Posted June 16, 2006 Posted June 16, 2006 Mike, I don't think that's a fair expectation since Preiss was soloing. Pitch 7 was runout, only fitting since it was low 5th class. Pitch 9 was pretty reasonable, again only fitting since it was 5.7/5.8-ish. And pitches 15-17 have no protection, only anchor bolts more useful for rappelling.
layton Posted June 16, 2006 Posted June 16, 2006 well nevermind then. plus, I'd never chop someone's bolt.
lancegranite Posted June 16, 2006 Posted June 16, 2006 ... is this a bad time to tell you guys about my "new sport climbing area"?
billcoe Posted June 16, 2006 Posted June 16, 2006 ... is this a bad time to tell you guys about my "new sport climbing area"? Acually the phrase " like a 1 legged man at an ass-kicking contest" comes to mind, so go for it! Is it on the other side of Garfield 10 feet on the wrong side of a sign that says "wilderness boundry" BTW.....?
Peter_Puget Posted June 16, 2006 Posted June 16, 2006 Bob Dylan on cc.com: Idiot wind, blowing like a circle around my skull, From the Grand Coulee Dam to the Capitol.
richard_noggin Posted June 21, 2006 Posted June 21, 2006 What happened! it's all gone!!! sorry i got so fired up SOS glad it's gone
132435465768 Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Shut up bitch. Abort the abortion. walk your talk tough guy
chris Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Joeseph and the numbers 1-8 took it too far. Take it outside to fight, boys. What I got out of this is an understanding about the history of that face, and the similarities and differences between the 1963 Route, the Preiss Route, and Infinite Bliss. Thanks to the moderators for moderating.
richard_noggin Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 (edited) Edited June 22, 2006 by richard_noggin
JosephH Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Richard, I have about a couple of grand sunk into Beacon not counting hundreds of hours of time that easily could be valued at my consulting rate. The bottom line is I have both time and money into climbing and know exactly what that's about. That someone would sink it into rap bolting an alpine sport route is, in my opinion (and however ambitious), completely misdirected, unwelcome, and created unnecessary problems for "the community". As for plugs by the river and "one crag" - well, you have no idea but I'll bank on one less person crowding the place. Thanks for your continued support...
richard_noggin Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 Glad mostly only you have seen my rant. people like you amazzzze me the totally clueless, this is not the alpine lakes wilderness, its a gangsta approach to a bushwack epic.... mind your own back yard Thats one big BUTT PLUG you got there JOE
chris Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 That someone would sink it into rap bolting an alpine sport route is, in my opinion (and however ambitious), completely misdirected, unwelcome, and created unnecessary problems for "the community". Joseph, You've made this claim before - what evidence is there that this route was bolted on rappel? Does anyone know? Matt P? I also can't see how it was done. Did they climb 23 pitches and then place bolts? It was my understanding that they bolted ground up, over two (or three?) summers. There is no easy way to the summit - even Preiss recommended against the cross-country route down the northern aspects. So how did it happen?
billcoe Posted June 22, 2006 Posted June 22, 2006 I remember the lynch mob that seemed to form on this site when it was alledged that Marko and Brooke had put in a rap bolt or 3 on Garfield (I think) for a new route. That seems too strident for my taste as well. Glad the angry personal posts then, and now, got deleted: thanks mods. The world seems upside down and everybody switched sides it appears. Joe, lifes too short to be so strident. Come on. Interesting idea de Jour for you: ask Dean Caldwell his thoughts and see if he recommends lightening up some. Happy to report that based on an earlier post I have 1 offer to let me lead all the pitches on IB and they will accompany me on the route, so I might want a topo myself. -Those are my morals, standards and ethics and if you don't like them I have others-
runoutjunkie Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Jo, it actually embarrasses me to know you are out there telling others that you are a climber. 2K in gear is not that much, and Leland is one of the nicest, most soft spoken guys around. He did due diligence, and was given an out of date map, which posted the wilderness area on the other side of Garfield. So What?! damn...
JosephH Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Ruoutjunkie, If you reading comprehension were a little more acute you would have picked up that I have around 2k into just the gear and materials around the Anchor replacement project out at Beacon - not in climbing gear. At my billable rate my time on just the weekdays I put in out there would come in at about ten times that. The point being that I do actually know what putting up the time, money, and effort into a climbing related activity is all about. And the issue isn't about whether Windham and Martin are "nice" guys or not - it was about their judgment in this matter. As for all of you that want to quibble over the exact placement of the wilderness boundary - that there was one anywhere in the vicinity tells you how inappropriate it was. Up there you might be able to use that justification for having added a couple of bolts to some otherwise stellar line, but to put up long meandering bolt ladder? Get real, it is an embarassment and a monument to bad judgment no different than Delicate Arch and the "community"s immediate response was similarly equivocating, painfull to watch, and in the end just an embarrassment better forgotten. Where we disagree is on the method of "forgetting" - some would prefer we forget it by really not talking much about it, I happen to thing the better way to forget it would be for the community or the FA's to remove it. It will breed more of the same so long as it exists. Mtn Freak, From R&I: Leland Windham and Steve Martin completed the route on August 10 after two years of hellish top-down labor. Situated on the western edge of Snoqualmie Pass in the Cascades, the stunning face route offers views of surrounding snow-capped peaks as well as Mount Rainier, 40 miles south.
russ Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 As for all of you that want to quibble over the exact placement of the wilderness boundary - that there was one anywhere in the vicinity tells you how inappropriate it was. Up there you might be able to use that justification for having added a couple of bolts to some otherwise stellar line, but to put up long meandering bolt ladder? Get real, it is an embarassment and a monument to bad judgment no different than Delicate Arch This thread is somewhat interesting reading, but I have to ask - you can't seriously be comparing climbing issues on Garfield to climbing issues on Delicate Arch? That such an absurd comparison that it minimizes any responsible argument you make. Btw, for the vast majority climbing is a recreational activity - your "billable rate" isn't a measure of anything real. If you're concerned about the money you could be making instead of maintaining anchors, then go work and quit whining about implied lost income.
G-spotter Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 This rate talk is interesting. So what is Leland's billable rate? Say I wantto put up an alpine sport climb but I can't take the time off to do it, can I hire him to clean and bolt it for me? Let's say Leland's rate is higher than Joseph's. Certainly he has installed more fixed gear cause his routes are sport routes. Does that therefore mean his claims of ownership take precedence over Joseph's? Seems logical. I didn't know that buying public land was that easy!
Off_White Posted June 23, 2006 Posted June 23, 2006 Joseph, it's not quibbling if the FA party, using information from a US Forest Service map provided to them by the relevant regulatory authority, was led to believe the route was outside the wilderness boundary. Anyway, bolts are fully legal in the wilderness, the issue there is power versus hand drilled. I believe your problem is with the bolt's existence at all, am I correct in that? I haven't done the route, but from all reports "bolt ladder" is an inaccurate inflammatory description. It's a bolt protected face climb. Isn't it something like 127 bolts in 22 pitches? Rounding up, that averages to 6 bolts per pitch, hardly a ladder. Regardless of R&I reportage, it's not a sport route, and gym climbers will be in way over their heads. Mr Noggin, are you out there? You're friends with Leland, how did he put up those pitches? I'm just curious, since THERE'S NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT RAP BOLTING ANYWHERE, but it doesn't seem that practical on this peak. Joeseph, you and I have been climbing for roughly the same amount of time, but started from very different locales. Bolt protected face climbs have always been a part of climbing in California since I started there in 1972, whereas you did not have them in Southern Illinois. While I don't dispute the validity of your experience, fact is that mine is much more the dominant paradigm. I think your position is much more fringe, and the mass groundswell of support you imagine is your due will not be forthcoming. The Delicate Arch debacle is an irrelevant but emotion freighted comparison. I appreciate your work with Beacon Rock, I wish everyone here would just accept that it's irrelevant to the current discussion and stop trying to goad you by belittling your involvement. You know that's the only reason it's brought up, don't you? There's not much point in snapping back at silly personal digs from anonymous posters. Dru's question (in another thread) about why the Burdo/Doorish climbs on Baring don't elicit the same outrage is pretty cogent if your issue is actually the larger question of bolts in alpine settings as compared to the smaller issue of appropriate motorized drilling. Why haven't your advocated chopping those routes? Is a sidebar in R&I really the crucial watermark?
Recommended Posts