keep illegals legal?? WTF?

[underworld]

where the heck did that come from?

 

but i wouldn't mind it if they confronted the day labor parties outside my place. i see drug deals and prostitutes daily. but they can't crack down on that type of illegal activity, it looks 'racist'

[JoshK]

my point was to point out the screwed up logic here. that the police are supposed to enforce the law - are protecting those breaking the law. same with all these other back asswards fest and get-togethers.

 

Since when have the police NOT existed to protect those breaking the law? Just as they have to protect the innocent they have to protect the "guilty" (as your screwed up view sees it) from vigilante justice and violence. As somebody else pointed out, they are around to keep the peace, not try to bust immigrants (many of them legal, mind you) and others protesting.

 

You also completely ignored my point. The economy is dependent on illegal immigrants at this point. They are also LESS LIKELY to commit crims than are native born Americans. Just because you happen to be a second generation native-born (as myself and plenty of others are) doesn't give you the right to completely ignore the facts and take xenophobic views any more than anybody else. Nor does your mexican heritage give you any more leway to critisize a largely hispanic demographic any more than somebody of a different race.

 

The fact remains is that a great deal of people are still scared of those who are different and those they see as taking their opportunities. Unfortunately for this argument, the fact also remains that illegal immigrants take, almost exclusively, jobs that "americans" won't do themselves. It's racist and xenophobic, plain and simple, because the pragmatic mind realizes what a benifit they are to our society.

 

Another point to bring up is the political implications of legalizing immigrants that aren't here "legally." Over 2/3 of this demographic will vote Democratic. They certainly realize this and it gives them another vested interest to continue to work against those who are here to work and improve their lives.

 

Pull your head out of the sand.

[Dechristo]

You also completely ignored my point.

 

Then don't wear a hat.

[slothrop]

Nah, that's just the po-lice themselves, doing "undercover" work.

 

If hundreds of thousands of people are protesting, I think it's worth paying attention to them, regardless of whether you think they should just go eat torta or whatever. What's the alternative? Fairweather can't be bothered to shoot all them wetbacks himself.

 

Why not make it as easy as possible for immigrants who want to work to do so? As long as they pay taxes, who cares? A guest worker program might be a good idea, since if there's a offically sanctioned way to get work that doesn't involve risking your life swimming the Rio Grande, then people will probably be willing to compete for a chance to take part. Everyone wins in that scenario.

 

I just read about some primate studies where it was observed that new members of a group, when welcomed into "society", quickly adapted to the new group's social standards. This in contrast to say, Germany or France, where guest workers (Eastern Europeans, Turks, Africans) have had a hard time assimilating, arguably because the natives weren't too welcoming or just kept to themselves.

[Bronco]

The economy is dependent on illegal immigrants at this point. They are also LESS LIKELY to commit crims than are native born Americans.

 

Your first statement sounds a lot like the oppostition to the $50 Vehicle Tabs a few years ago. I don't buy it. You could outsource most of those jobs if need be. I doubt it would produce much more than a hickup in the overall scheme of things.

 

Sure seems like the ratio of naitve born Americans in jail vs the ratio of illegals in Jail would conflict with your second statement. Or is that just because the police and courts are all racist.

[SelfArrest]

You could outsource most of those jobs if need be.

Like crop work and janitorial services?

[olyclimber]

This thread is so passe. SNL this past week covered all this material and more.

[Bronco]

No, like manufacturing.

 

I did both crop and janitorial work when I was a youngster. And the last time I checked, our economy wasn't teetering on either of those sectors.

[Dechristo]

This thread is so passe.

 

Shut-up with that filthy pig-latin and speak 'merican.

[olyclimber]

Most of the posting & discussion is very non-climbing oriented. Like 75% of it....ick.

[Dechristo]

wtf? social climbing don't count?

[Bronco]

You sound like a gay illegal.

[cj001f]

where the heck did that come from?

That was the random putdown insult only tangentially related to the topic with little or no basis in fact, but sort of funny in a mean spirited way. I'm trying to work my way to Ann Coulter/ Bill O'Reilly/ Rush Limbaugh status/wealth on the liberal side of the coin. I'm better looking than Al Franken (who isn't?) so I figure I've got a chance!

[Dechristo]

You sound like a gay illegal.

 

He is Mango dancing with J Lo

 

[SelfArrest]

or...

[underworld]

They are also LESS LIKELY to commit crims than are native born Americans.

 

please provide some numbers to prove this...

 

doesn't give you the right to completely ignore the facts and take xenophobic views

 

i'm pretty sure i haven't said anything derogatory about any race here. just because i brought up the topic of illegals w/o completely showing support for their cause - automatically gets the response of me being a racist. different opinion = wrong opinion

 

 

...Unfortunately for this argument, the fact also remains that illegal immigrants take, almost exclusively, jobs that "americans" won't do themselves. It's racist and xenophobic, plain and simple, because the pragmatic mind realizes what a benifit they are to our society.

 

not sure if you agree w/ me on this...you used too many big words - but it sounds horrible to want to keep letting them in illegally because they do the dirty work. if we keep a second class citizen here then we'll always have someone to mow our lawn and clean our toilettes. seems like some might have that attitude on both sides.

Edited April 11, 2006 by underworld

[JoshK]

Unfortunately my JSTOR access account at school is acting up right now, so I'll give a article source that you should be able to easily find through other means. As I imagine you will, you can simply read the abstract for the article and then proceed to bash it as "liberal academia".

 

Sociological Criminology and the Mythology of Hispanic Immigration and Crime

John Hagan, Alberto Palloni

Social Problems, Vol. 46, No. 4 (Nov., 1999) , pp. 617-632

View Article Abstract

 

John Hagan, Northwestern University and American Bar Foundation

 

Alberto Palloni, University of Wisconsin.

 

"Our sociological knowledge of crime is fragmented and ineffective in challenging and correcting mistaken public perceptions, for example, linking immigration and crime. These misperceptions are perpetuated by government reports of growing numbers of Hispanic immigrants in U.S. prisons. However, Hispanic immigrants are disproportionately young males who regardless of citizenship are at greater risk of criminal involvement. They are also more vulnerable to restrictive treatment in the criminal justice system, especially at the pre-trial stage. When these differences are integrated into calculations using equations that begin with observed numbers of immigrants and citizens in state prisons, it is estimated that the involvement of Hispanic immigrants in crime is less than that of citizens. These results cast doubt on the hypothesis that immigration causes crime and make more transparent the immigration and criminal justice policies that inflate the rate of Hispanic incarceration. This transparency helps to resolve a paradox in the picture of Mexican immigration to the United States, since by most measures of well-being, Mexican immigrants are found to do as well and sometimes better than citizens."

[JoshK]

not sure if you agree w/ me on this...you used too many big words - but it sounds horrible to want to keep letting them in illegally because they do the dirty work. if we keep a second class citizen here then we'll always have someone to mow our lawn and clean our toilettes. seems like some might have that attitude on both sides.

 

No, that is not what I was saying. I think my point (and, frankly, your reply) is a clear example of why these people deserve citizenship. They work hard and are here to earn a living for their family. For that, they should be paid a minimum wage and reciece the government benifits that we all receive.

[Dechristo]

Should the proliferate illegal contractors be required to pay back taxes, SSI, etc.? In my geographic region they've successfully underbid those with the government mandated labor burden for many years.

 

Or, to be fair to those that have competed with illegal contractors, should you declare amnesty, would you have the government refund taxes, SSI, State Unemployment payments, etc. to those competitors that have operated legally?

[kevbone]

This county was founded on imigrants, lets not forget that.

[Dechristo]

Care to name a Country where, originally, humans didn't move to and subsequently form a political state/nation?

 

This county was founded on imigrants, lets not forget that.

This oft heard notion (usually spelled correctly) is as trite as most of my posts.

[Jopa]

This county was founded on imigrants, lets not forget that.

Although your statement is well intentioned (I believe), it is not true. Africans did not immigrate here; they were brought against their will and forced into slavery. In the process of coming through the "Middle Passage" MILLIONS died of disease, dysentery, starvation, or were simply thrown off the ship into the Atlantic. I would hardly call this immigration; sounds more like genocide to me.

 

But that's "water under the bridge," right?

[KaskadskyjKozak]

Not *all* Africans were brought here as slaves.

[Jopa]

You are right, but I was responding to the comment that the country was "founded on immigrants." At that time I know of no Africans that were here other than through slavery.

[JayB]

Nothing like millitant milquetoast white folks beating their PC drum while restating conventional wisdom as though it's some kind of bold contravention of the status quo.

 

"Racism is REAL!!!!!!!!!That's right - I said it....REAL"

"Black people didn't immigrate here - they were brought here as SLAVES!!!!!!!!"

 

Awesome. Treat us to some more of these keen moral and or historical insights.

 

"Abusing children is WRONG!!!!!!!"

"Lighting old people on fire is NOT OKAY!!!"

"I am AGAINST stomping kittens and puppies to death. Yeah, you heard me!!!"