Bush vs Science

[Dave_Schuldt]

Lots of science geeks on this board, comments?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/17/60minutes/main1415985.shtml

Kind of old news but a good report.

Are we doomed or what?

How much more damage can one man do before 2008?

[ScottP]

Even if the shrub turned 180 degrees and proclaimed that global warming was a real danger, the rest of humanity would not suddenly stop spewing the current stew of 'greenhouse gases' into the air.

We are a weak, short-sighted species, totally dependant on the creature comforts the use of fossil fuels has provided us.

Nothing short of extinction will change that.

[Johnny_Tuff]

There was a hilarious (unintentionally, natch) letter to the Willamette Week last week from a peak oil denier, wherein the fellow first proclaimed that due to market forces, better technology, etc., the planet would "never run out of oil," and then later stated that oil from sand and shale would last for "centuries." Apparently he meant that the planet would never run out of oil while he was still living on it.

 

I hope people like that get reincarnated as gas-huffing gas station attendants in whatever year the oil runs out. Shortsighted is right.

 

Speaking of alternative means of transportation, those of us who are fair-weather cyclists should be back on the pedals soon...beautiful day in PDX today! Bye-bye, TriMet and your smelly ridership, densely packed confines, and occasionally inconvenient schedules; hello quads, calves, passing backed-up traffic, and cardio fitness!

 

[G-spotter]

archaea make oil. the world will only run out of oil if we run out of archaea

[Johnny_Tuff]

archaea make oil. the world will only run out of oil if we run out of archaea

 

You mean these guys?

 

 

Shit, I thought they only made sweet outdoorsy-wear. Haven't seen any of their fueling stations around here, though. Are you sure they're not just Canadian?

[JayB]

There was a hilarious (unintentionally, natch) letter to the Willamette Week last week from a peak oil denier, wherein the fellow first proclaimed that due to market forces, better technology, etc., the planet would "never run out of oil," and then later stated that oil from sand and shale would last for "centuries." Apparently he meant that the planet would never run out of oil while he was still living on it.

 

I hope people like that get reincarnated as gas-huffing gas station attendants in whatever year the oil runs out. Shortsighted is right.

 

Speaking of alternative means of transportation, those of us who are fair-weather cyclists should be back on the pedals soon...beautiful day in PDX today! Bye-bye, TriMet and your smelly ridership, densely packed confines, and occasionally inconvenient schedules; hello quads, calves, passing backed-up traffic, and cardio fitness!

 

 

I just wonder when the world will run out of eco-narcissist candyasses that blanche when confronted with a bit of light drizzle and go scurrying back to the comforts of their......horrid, earth destroying, C02 belching mechanized transport

 

I rode to work every day in a climate that's ten times as harsh as Portland's, so walk the talk or shut-up you sanctimonious pussy.

[Mos_Chillin]

Yeah, and RODE (past tense) 1000 miles a month when I WAS a courier, but I am fat and out of shape now, driving said guzzler.

 

hasbeens.

 

[Jim]

The thought of riding the bus is what keeps me on the bike even in the dregs of winter. The dang thing is either a minute early or 10 minutes late, and usually the heat is on stun. Though I do get more reading done when I do mange to ride Metro.

 

Back to the subjet at hand - the Bushies are very consistent. There's nothing to do about (insert global warming, national debt, Katrina) so that's exactly what we will do. Excellent strategy, just pass it on to the kids.

[catbirdseat]

Global Warming is essentially the same as the Tragedy of the Commons. Substitute the global environment for a common sheep pasture. No one has an incentive to do anything because there is no way to get everyone to comply.

[underworld]

if everyone pushes, we might get the world to spin the other direction

[JayB]

Global Warming is essentially the same as the Tragedy of the Commons. Substitute the global environment for a common sheep pasture. No one has an incentive to do anything because there is no way to get everyone to comply.

 

Wait a minute. After reading the ongoing commentary here for months it seems clear that if only people will trade in their SUV's for Subaru Outbacks and Volvo Cross-Country's with Free Tibet Stickers on the Back, shop at PCC and Restoration Hardware instead of Target and Walmart, and substitute organic fair-trade coffee for Starbucks, global warming would be a non-issue. I mean, this seems to be the extent of the "sacrifices" that most people are actually making in their lives, and clearly this entitles them to occupy a lofty-plane of eco-superiority such that they can condemn their environmentally challenged countrymen for destroying the planet - so lots of finger-pointing while getting an extra 2-3 mpg on the daily commute and paying extra for groceries must be the solution.

[cj001f]

Wait a minute. After reading the ongoing commentary here for months it seems clear that if only people will trade in their SUV's for Subaru Outbacks and Volvo Cross-Country's with Free Tibet Stickers on the Back, shop at PCC and Restoration Hardware instead of Target and Walmart, and substitute organic fair-trade coffee for Starbucks, global warming would be a non-issue. I mean, this seems to be the extent of the "sacrifices" that most people are actually making in their lives, and clearly this entitles them to occupy a lofty-plane of eco-superiority such that they can condemn their environmentally challenged countrymen for destroying the planet - so lots of finger-pointing while getting an extra 2-3 mpg on the daily commute and paying extra for groceries must be the solution.

 

 

the only thing left binding the right is hatred of the left

[underworld]

Global Warming is essentially the same as the Tragedy of the Commons. Substitute the global environment for a common sheep pasture. No one has an incentive to do anything because there is no way to get everyone to comply.

 

Wait a minute. After reading the ongoing commentary here for months it seems clear that if only people will trade in their SUV's for Subaru Outbacks and Volvo Cross-Country's with Free Tibet Stickers on the Back, shop at PCC and Restoration Hardware instead of Target and Walmart, and substitute organic fair-trade coffee for Starbucks, global warming would be a non-issue. I mean, this seems to be the extent of the "sacrifices" that most people are actually making in their lives, and clearly this entitles them to occupy a lofty-plane of eco-superiority such that they can condemn their environmentally challenged countrymen for destroying the planet - so lots of finger-pointing while getting an extra 2-3 mpg on the daily commute and paying extra for groceries must be the solution.

 

if only the dinosaurs had such insight

[Johnny_Tuff]

Wait a minute. After reading the ongoing commentary here for months it seems clear that if only people will trade in their SUV's for Subaru Outbacks and Volvo Cross-Country's with Free Tibet Stickers on the Back, shop at PCC and Restoration Hardware instead of Target and Walmart, and substitute organic fair-trade coffee for Starbucks, global warming would be a non-issue. I mean, this seems to be the extent of the "sacrifices" that most people are actually making in their lives, and clearly this entitles them to occupy a lofty-plane of eco-superiority such that they can condemn their environmentally challenged countrymen for destroying the planet - so lots of finger-pointing while getting an extra 2-3 mpg on the daily commute and paying extra for groceries must be the solution.

 

I hope some genetically-modified-artificial-food-eating lardass in a Hummer (that gets about 1/3 the gas mileage of a Subaru--hardly insignificant) runs you over on your daily commute, Mr. Bike Hero.

[foraker]

Mr Ex-Bike Hero. Note the use of the past tense in previous statement.

 

I always dislike it when anyone resorts to using extreme solutions to try to derail constructive criticism e.g. "if you hate our dependency on oil, why aren't you walking everywhere, you hippy?" or "why haven't you enlisted yet?"

 

FWIW, I do drive but I drive as little as possible. I live near where I can walk to the store and I ride the bus back and forth to work every day. For years, I either rode the subway, walked to work, or rode my bike. I didn't really have access to my own vehicle until I was in my thirties. I eschew packaging, etc and am not prone to rampant consumerist tendencies. I live in high density housing.

 

So, JayB, people are doing things they just aren't doing as many extreme things as you suggest. If more of your small minded brethren got on board, we might have to wait a several decades longer before we all go back to walking.

Do you really need that F350 to haul your little fat ass Bratleigh and Snotleigh to school and to Costco? Do you really need a 5000 sq ft house for 4 people? Despite what you seem to think, people don't always make rational choices (this has been proven time and again, esp wrt financial choices).

[catbirdseat]

Are we talking about Public Policy or Individual initiative here? If you want to talk about the former and how legislation could make a difference, I'll tell you how.

 

I've said this before. If the insurance industry were forced to provide liability insurance to individuals rather than vehicles, people could afford to own more cars. They could afford to have the F350 for hauling steer manure or the jetskis on the weekend and a hybrid car to get to work during the week. It shouldn't cost twice as much to insure two cars that belong to one person. Yes, they give "multicar discounts", but they are trivial.

 

The most efficient transportation cars get on average about three times the mileage as the least efficient. This could have a huge effect on CO2 emissions.

[JayB]

Wait a minute. After reading the ongoing commentary here for months it seems clear that if only people will trade in their SUV's for Subaru Outbacks and Volvo Cross-Country's with Free Tibet Stickers on the Back, shop at PCC and Restoration Hardware instead of Target and Walmart, and substitute organic fair-trade coffee for Starbucks, global warming would be a non-issue. I mean, this seems to be the extent of the "sacrifices" that most people are actually making in their lives, and clearly this entitles them to occupy a lofty-plane of eco-superiority such that they can condemn their environmentally challenged countrymen for destroying the planet - so lots of finger-pointing while getting an extra 2-3 mpg on the daily commute and paying extra for groceries must be the solution.

 

I hope some genetically-modified-artificial-food-eating lardass in a Hummer (that gets about 1/3 the gas mileage of a Subaru--hardly insignificant) runs you over on your daily commute, Mr. Bike Hero.

 

With the way people drive out here, you may very well get your wish! Keep your fingers crossed.

 

Funny you should mention genetically modified foods. Crops that are more drought and pest resistant, produce higher yields, and require far fewer inputs that harm the environment - fuel, fertilizer, pesticide, and less land under tillage have the potential to dramatically reduce the environmental damage associated with farming, especially in the third world, and reduce the amount of land under tillage, and the rate of deforestation [these all have implications for climate change] - not to mention human misery and starvation, and the diseases associated with both. So the next time you see a lardass in a hummer, instead of cursing at him under your breath, run over and give him a hug - you may have more in common than you think.

[JayB]

Mr Ex-Bike Hero. Note the use of the past tense in previous statement.

 

I always dislike it when anyone resorts to using extreme solutions to try to derail constructive criticism e.g. "if you hate our dependency on oil, why aren't you walking everywhere, you hippy?" or "why haven't you enlisted yet?"

 

FWIW, I do drive but I drive as little as possible. I live near where I can walk to the store and I ride the bus back and forth to work every day. For years, I either rode the subway, walked to work, or rode my bike. I didn't really have access to my own vehicle until I was in my thirties. I eschew packaging, etc and am not prone to rampant consumerist tendencies. I live in high density housing.

 

So, JayB, people are doing things they just aren't doing as many extreme things as you suggest. If more of your small minded brethren got on board, we might have to wait a several decades longer before we all go back to walking.

Do you really need that F350 to haul your little fat ass Bratleigh and Snotleigh to school and to Costco? Do you really need a 5000 sq ft house for 4 people? Despite what you seem to think, people don't always make rational choices (this has been proven time and again, esp wrt financial choices).

 

Even allowing for all of this, your lifetime resource consumption is probably around 10-20% lower than the guy with the F-350's, and for the average person who heads home to their poorly insulated $600,000 1920's home in Freemont - the difference is even smaller. For all of the villifying of the folks with large vehicles and suburban lifestyles that goes on, that's not a hell of a lot, and it probably still puts you a few standard deviations above the global average.

 

Small actions that really involve little or no sacrifice on anyone's part can be helpful, but a little bit of realism and humility is in order. Even if you ride a Vespa to work and grow vegetables on your 4'x6' deck - with your central heating, electric appliances, etc, etc, etc over the course of your life you are pretty much fucking up the planet as much as the next guy and really in no position to point fingers. Sorry.

[Jim]

Opps - falling of the flat earth again. Yep, not matter what we're doing we're headed for hell in a hand basket so best not to do anything. Shoot - compared to the Negev nomads we're consuming so much that any dent in consumption is negligible. So why bother?

 

I'd have to go along with CBS's observation that government has a role here. Rather than favoring legislations that favors the oil companies some modest steps, such as increasing the CAFE standards (what? - it's been like 20 yrs since updating?) and similar pushes for reducing green house emmissions can make a difference. A few clicks will get you to the widely accepted data.

 

Can we turn the monster ship in time? Maybe. But if we do nothing, as usual, the results are inevitible. We've become a fat, complacent, and unchallenged populace.

[cj001f]

Small actions that really involve little or no sacrifice on anyone's part can be helpful, but a little bit of realism and humility is in order. Even if you ride a Vespa to work and grow vegetables on your 4'x6' deck - with your central heating, electric appliances, etc, etc, etc over the course of your life you are pretty much fucking up the planet as much as the next guy and really in no position to point fingers. Sorry.

What a bunch of bollocks contrived to excuse freemarket onanism. If you really think that commuting by bicycle or moped vs. 20 miles by truck and living in a 1000sqft apt vs a 4000sqft home for 2 people is a 20% savings I'd suggest you work with Mr. Mclellan

[jon]

Lots of science geeks on this board, comments?

 

As a scientist I damage the earth more then any of you while trying to find cures because you are too stupid to wear a fucking condom. Between the amount of electricity I consume to keep my -70C freezers cold full of your disease infested tissue and serum sample, the amount of toxic organic solvents I need to prepare my samples, the amount of plastic consumables I use to do the experiments, I'm pretty sure I'm fucking up the planet more then any of you. Then again President Bush has decided that science isn't very important and god is going to save us all so he has cut research funding to scary low levels. Don't worry though, you are going to die one way or the other, whether I use up all the oil in the worlds with my plastics to cure your gynaherpeclap of the mouth or you die of skin cancer because you destroyed the ozone.....either way your fucked.

[jon]

Here is another one for all you stupid tree hugger liberal fuckstick clownpunchers. I see all of you in the grocery store thinking you are being all hippy treehugerish getting paper bags instead of plastic because plastic is evil. The reality is the plastic bags take FAR LESS energy to produce and FAR LESS energy to recycle the paper bags. GET A FUCKING CLUE! There is nothing environmental about choosing recycled paper, it takes a fucking TON of energy to recycle that stuff.

[jon]

oh yeah

 

I'M RICK JAMES BITCH!

[underworld]

so screwing prostitutes in the back of my F350 while the engine is running... is ok?

[jon]

only if you give her a pearl neckless.