G-spotter Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Climbing, and the general outdoor industry, are seeing intensification. Low user # growth, rise in user days. ...but not so on Rainier or in NCNP....where user days are decreasing. Didn't you get the memo? More room for the to roam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mos_Chillin Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Tell Me About The Hurt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 ...but not so on Rainier or in NCNP....where user days are decreasing. I meant rise in days per user, mr I'll never find the G-Spot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 6 of one halfsack of the other Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 6 of one halfsack of the other I ain't Lance, but I've nailed Sheryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 SUPPER TIME OH SHIT WHATS ON THE MENU OH SHIT THATS A CHEEP ASS PRINCE BURGER I"LL TAKE THAT SHIT YO AND A BOTTLE OF CANADIAN NO MAKE THAT A HALFSACK BIAAATCH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalius Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Half Sack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 4 fingers = $10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 How big has the collapse been? Kind of interesting - never heard of that happening before. Any thoughts on the reasons why? Did everyone convert to kiteboarding? If the mountains are actually getting less crowded, and there's enough of a market to support innovation, and good manufacturing - seems like the best of all possible worlds to me. Better gear, more price competition, and less folks in the way when you want to use them. Seems like old-schooler Valhala as long as the bolting is confined to Exit38esque areas. mid90s (pre kitesurfing) windsurfing really tanked. Too specialized, too bro-brah, too difficult to learn. There was a WSJ article circa 2000? about it. I'm not sure kitesurfing is really taking off.. more popular, but aside from a few special locations, not terribly popular. steep learning curve, $$$$ Climbing, and the general outdoor industry, are seeing intensification. Low user # growth, rise in user days. Same people doing more, in more places, at a higher level. The ski industry is a perfect example of this. Also see adventure tourism growth. Frankly I could give a fuck about innovation and manufacturing... you can always make shit yourself. As long as there's someone with half a brain and a milling machine you'll have climbing gear. And a hydraulic press and vaccuum pump, voila you've got skis. Yeah - there's an element of truth to that, but I have that the bindings that came along with the last set of alpine skis that I bought sure seem like a serious improvement over the last generation of bindings - and I'm not sure that Tonto working in his garage could produce them - much less on the scale that I could afford or the kind of quality that I'd expect - so there's a limit. Ditto for cams, clearance shaft tools, click-shifters, clipless pedals, graphite fly-rods, floating fly-lines, fluorocarbon tippet material, rotomolded kayaks, goretex drytops, softshell fabrics, modern ice-screws, screamers, sticky-rubber, etc, etc, etc - pretty much all of the equipment that I have that's substantially better than what was available 20 years ago is the result of someone catering to the mass-market. Doesn't mean you can't go the buckskin and stone tool route if you want to though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Yeah - there's an element of truth to that, but I have that the bindings that came along with the last set of alpine skis that I bought sure seem like a serious improvement over the last generation of bindings - and I'm not sure that Tonto working in his garage could produce them - much less on the scale that I could afford or the kind of quality that I'd expect - so there's a limit. Ditto for cams, clearance shaft tools, click-shifters, clipless pedals, graphite fly-rods, floating fly-lines, fluorocarbon tippet material, rotomolded kayaks, goretex drytops, softshell fabrics, modern ice-screws, screamers, sticky-rubber, etc, etc, etc - pretty much all of the equipment that I have that's substantially better than what was available 20 years ago is the result of someone catering to the mass-market. Doesn't mean you can't go the buckskin and stone tool route if you want to though. Cams. Skis. Ice Screws. Screamers. Fly reels. Graphite Fly rods. Clearance shaft tools. Bindings. All manufacturable in a tiny shop, as long as some parts can be outsourced to a generic firm (don't believe me? look at yates, igneous, any rod company, and a decent machine shop - a friends(who ran a machine shop) comment on my shrikes was"you paid how much for those? I could turn 'em out for 1/3 that!"). If you'd like I could hook you up with someone who could make those for you (not all the same people). Yup, one person. Maybe 2 or 3 for something big like a kayak. Of course some of them may be in their 60s. Because America doesn't believe in machinists anymore. Buckskin and stone tools Sure, the price might go up - perhaps 100%. Quality could be as good or better. Perhaps the pace of innovation might slow. That'd just keep the riffraff out. I'm sure people would still push the limites - they always do. And they'd have a smile on their face too. Which as all I care about. Of course it'd also end the bro-deals and marketing piece of shit mags, but no loss there.... and it'd be no holocaust. Those who enjoy the sport would still have fun. Those who came for the social benefits would pass on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Is the point to enjoy the outdoors with equipment that works best or to devote all of your time and cash to producing it? As a consumer it's all about the person who produces the best product and sells it at the best price, and I am not terribly concerned about the methods or the scale that that they use to make it. If it's a guy in shop in his backyard - great, but that's just really not likely to be the case. I tie my own flies as a hobby, and like to make furniture, and there's definitely something satisfying about making something that works with your own hands, but there's a limit to how much of this you can do if you ever want to have the time to actually put the stuff to use. This seems a case of transference - hostility towards mass market consumerism transfered onto the mass of consumers who happen to share your hobbies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Gear innovation and reasonable retail prices are not tied to a sponsorship and advertising centered business model. You seem to assume they are. There are plenty of people making excellent quality gear in the backyard shop - but consumers choose the disposable gear route. Igneous skis last several times longer than a Salomon piece of shit. If you think gear is going to get "better" when we get to choose between K2 and Amersports for all of our needs you are a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I think gear has gotten progressively better for the past 100 years as a result of market competition, and any guy working out of a garage, a la Burton, that's making something that's better will probably find himself scaling things up quite a bit. Are you sure that you moved to sunny Socal and not Kacynski's Cabin? Time to ease up on the "Industrial Society and It's Future" stuff, Kemosabe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 I think gear has gotten progressively better for the past 100 years as a result of market competition, and any guy working out of a garage, a la Burton, that's making something that's better will probably find himself scaling things up quite a bit. All depends on your timescale horizon, don't it? Capitalism works best over long time horizons, but ignores short term difficulties. I've no problem with industrial society; it's the world we live in. It's the current advertising/marketing/brobrah outdoor industry that I find silly, and it's own worst enemy. Prodeals and discounts for the people who'd gain the most from your product? WTF? Raising the barrier of entry so high that you eliminate the future of your industry - cough - skiing - cough - is just stupid. They've no vision, aside from cashing out to K2 or AmerSports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-spotter Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 get a room you two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 Is the point to enjoy the outdoors with equipment that works best or to devote all of your time and cash to producing it? As a consumer it's all about the person who produces the best product and sells it at the best price, and I am not terribly concerned about the methods or the scale that that they use to make it. If it's a guy in shop in his backyard - great, but that's just really not likely to be the case. I tie my own flies as a hobby, and like to make furniture, and there's definitely something satisfying about making something that works with your own hands, but there's a limit to how much of this you can do if you ever want to have the time to actually put the stuff to use. This seems a case of transference - hostility towards mass market consumerism transfered onto the mass of consumers who happen to share your hobbies. You ever sell any of your extra flies? If so, I'll buy em. PM me--serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cj001f Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 You ever sell any of your extra flies? If so, I'll buy em. PM me--serious. What you want? Drys, Wets, Stremers, Salmon, Salt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 You ever sell any of your extra flies? If so, I'll buy em. PM me--serious. What you want? Drys, Wets, Stremers, Salmon, Salt? I'll take the salmon, and a side Caesar salad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weekend_Climberz Posted March 10, 2006 Share Posted March 10, 2006 And a future REI is birthed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 11, 2006 Share Posted March 11, 2006 Quick, let's boycott him before he gets too big for his britches and starts selling lawn chairs & BBQs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 You ever sell any of your extra flies? If so, I'll buy em. PM me--serious. What you want? Drys, Wets, Stremers, Salmon, Salt? Dry and nymph; Nymphs around 10-12 flies a wee bit smaller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 You ever sell any of your extra flies? If so, I'll buy em. PM me--serious. What you want? Drys, Wets, Stremers, Salmon, Salt? Dry nympho. That's gotta be a difficult combination for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archenemy Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 You ever sell any of your extra flies? If so, I'll buy em. PM me--serious. What you want? Drys, Wets, Stremers, Salmon, Salt? Dry nympho. That's gotta be a difficult combination for you. I'm used to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 THANK GOD FOR THE KY! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny_Tuff Posted March 13, 2006 Share Posted March 13, 2006 Figured you'd have to slip a little comment in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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