Greed

[Guest]

Hey there! Amidst all the route beta and so forth, I thought I'd throw out a topic for contemplation, as inspired by a recent trip to the outdoor emporium.

Question: how many of you like to go to your favorite mountain or climbing area and see the place absolutely crowded with loads of folks on the verge of route-rage?

How many of you would like to see as many people as possible take up the game of mountaineering and derivative pursuits?

I would venture to say that most people would prefer quite the opposite. (Been to Vantage, Smith Rocks or even ice climbing lately? Who could imagine lines on such formerly intimidating climbs in Yosemite such as Zodiac?) Yet those climbing magazines we all read are in the business of getting as many people as possible involved in these activities. They make money from selling ads and subscriptions and the more the better. Same with the big outdoor supermarkets.

IRONICALLY, THE VERY BUSINESSES THAT PROFIT FROM MOUNTAINEERING DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY PARTICIPATE IN DECREASING THE QUALITY OF THE CLIMBING EXPERIENCE.

This isn't really something necessarily to debate, but something to think about. I've seen back issues of Climbing Magazine from years ago and it was a cheap little unimpressive thing. Now it's big, glossy and full of companies that want any and all to get some action. Maybe in another 10 years it will be as bad as the Alps!

 

- Donna

[Bronco]

Greedy corporate profits are probably not to blame as much as the perceived increase in safty with advanced technology of the ubiquitous cel-phone, avalanche beacon, carbon fiber thingybobbers, ultra lite weight everything and so on. With all of the new doohickys on the market, people feel more confident about getting out there and getting back home safly which may not be the case. Of course this theory is sold by the gear corportations to justify your purchase so, maybe they are behind it! OOOOOOHHHH a conspiracy!

Trip report on this subject: I was the 3rd person out of the Paradise Parking lot on Sunday hiking to camp muir and quickly passed the 2 dudes in front of me. From then on, I had the mountian seemingly to myself with the exception of the occasional decending party, until I reached Muir and turned around to decend. There must have been 200-300 other people on the trail heading up, but almost everyone had a great attitude and was enjoying themselves. I don't mind sharing the awesome mountains or crags - they belong to everyone equally regardless of how long you have been using them. My $.05 on the subject.

PS: I don't think this problem is isolated to the Alpine Lakes region (weak joke).

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

Right on Bronco,

I pretty much agree that I dont own the Mtns. Even though the mtnrs are here

I like meeting new people all the time and it is inevitable that there will be more people in the mtns.

It is not to blame on anything but society itself..

 

 

[Beck]

It is not purely corporate forces driving the hoardes of cragcrowders. Corporate forces may encourage yearly updates to your gear or ski quiver via annual "product updates" or new "color schemes"- just look at the monstrosity that REI has become! What draws people to the mountains are the same urges that draw all of us- vistas,grandeur, recreation, connecting with the earth, getting grimy.

Society and American Culture are the tainting forces at the crags and the big walls, the classic routes and the "hot spots"

Rude behavior, hogging routes, dropping rocks, loud music, louts on routes, are all more emblematic of our failing as a culture to embody and encourage a vital and cooperative outdoor ethic.

[This message has been edited by Beck (edited 05-22-2001).]

[scott]

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[This message has been edited by scott (edited 05-22-2001).]

[mattp]

I agree with Caveman and Bronco. I enjoy meeting other people out enjoying themselves in the mountains, and I believe that it is generally a good thing for there to be lots of people who value wilderness areas and roadside crags for recreational use because these people are generally motivated to preserve open space and habitat as well as to maintain at least some semblance of a healthy lifestyle. As to the commercialization of the sport, I do find it sad that everyone believes they must have the latest in gizmos and plastic clothing where when I was young all we had was Sears workboots and a P-38 can opener and these tools were sufficient to do the job. However, that just seems to be the way it is (I myself can't even write a letter without a P450 or higher microchip and laser printer). Similarly, it is sad that we focus more on the rating or the name recognition than the beauty of our climbs, but books with "Extreme" in the title sell more copies than "Starlight and Storm." So maybe what you're talking about, Donna, is the general degradation of society and our alienation from self, or something like that. And I'm not denigrating your post because I would have to say that corporate greed causes the vendors and magazine publishers to push everything that is wrong with our sport and little that is right with it. But we don't have to fall for that. One last point - if you would like to have a mountain to yourself, go try one of the thousands of climbs that is not in "Select Climbs" and does not have three stars in a guidebook -- you will likely see nobody.

[jblakley]

I enjoy solitude in the wilderness. If I want that I choose routes that are not that crowded. I can choose to speculate why areas are becoming more crowded but that will not change the situation so I try not to go there. I enjoy climbing very much so I really strive to look for the positives. I have very little control in what happens in this world and I think the best way we can teach people new to climbing is by example not criticism. This is a big state and if a climb I want to do is crowded then I have two choices: get pissed off and fume about all of the posers keeping me from doing 'my' route or do something else. I've done both by the way ;-)

[Dru]

I like solitude.

Never had a problem with crowds on a first ascent.

If you don't like crowds... try going someplace that isn't popular. Pick a festination out of something other than 50 Crowded Climbs and/or Selected Crowded Climbs. If you are heading for something like Snow Lake, Diedre, or Disappointment Cleaver you are going to have to accept that a lot of other people will be doing the same thing.

[forrest_m]

Of what is this not true? Don't you feel robbed when a local band that you used to see for a buck at a bar signs a big contract and now everybody knows about them? When the ocean beach that your family used to have all to yourselves becomes a goat rodeo?

Try this game: insert virtually any worthwhile activity in the place of "mountaineering" in donna's phrase:

IRONICALLY, THE VERY BUSINESSES THAT PROFIT FROM __(insert activity)___ DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY PARTICIPATE IN DECREASING THE QUALITY OF THE ___(insert activity)___EXPERIENCE

[pope]

You're right, Forrest, the statement is completely modular. For example, a small number of people used to ride mountain bikes on the trails of Pt. Defiance Municipal Park. Then some greedy guy opened a shop just outside the park, where, you guessed it, one could rent a moutain bike. All too soon, the increase in bike traffic caused the ornathologists and other strollers to object. Bikes are no longer allowed.

[Dan_Larson]

I figure if your arrogant enough to think people are crowding your mountain you should be good enough to do the routes that the masses don't do.I am a novice and it will be a happy day when I progress past Ingraham and emmons to the Willis wall or some other technical route. Until then .....CALLING #89 it's your turn to enter the cowlitz glacier.

[Bob_Clarke]

In speech's from Rienhold Messner and Fred Becky they both said "90 percent of the climbers are using 10 percent of the land. Expand our horizons."

I heard this many years ago and as time marches on it has become clear that these icons really knew what they were talking about. So the responsibility comes back to us as climbers to explore the possibilities rather than the opposite.

[Peter_Puget]

I remember backpacking in the 60s in Sierra Nevada Mountains and watching a team getting ready to climb Banner Peak. To my eyes that was an amazing goal and I knew right then that I wanted to climb mountains. Later hiking at the Pinnacles Nat Mon. I realized I was only half right at the base of Banner, I wanted to rock climb not be a mountaineer. I also distinctly remember drinking water directly out of some streams without worry. My parents came to the West Coast after my father first saw the Sierra Mountains before being shipped off to the South Pacific during WWII. Those who hiked in the Cascades and Sierra Mtns in the 30s and 40 thought “damn all these new imports after WWII have wrecked the isolation and beauty of the mountains.” I remember going to Smith Rocks on a sunny May weekend and being the only climbing party there. Last time I went there I counted 27 people at the Morning Glory Wall. I thought all these people have wrecked MY Smith Rock experience. Maybe in 20 years they’ll be thinking the same thing. But at that time at the Morning Glory Wall these people were having the time of their lives. What crasser from of parochialism could there be than to claim that climbing or the climbing experience has been corrupted or cheapened due to its increased popularity or commercialization. Sure climbing has changed but saying that is a far cry from reasonably asserting that it has become defective. While I can’t bivi along the Icicle like I use to, I can do an amazing number of routes that are directly the result of the nature of modern climbing. While Index may be packed on the weekends, I can run out to Little Si or Exit 38 after work. While the ambiance at the popular cliffs has changed, those desiring solitude and the chance to explore have a phenomenal number of easy opportunities here in the NW.

The thing that drives me crazy about the magazines is not that there are too many people at the cliffs but that the magazines promote change and conflict. Every issue has to have some breakthrough - some selling point. I open a magazine now and all I read about is some young teen did this, some woman did that. How hard is hard? How high is high? The experience of climbing seems only to be defined by some standard outside of itself. Some time ago Pope wrote about the experience he had belaying someone on the Edge. That experience at a climb rated so low as to be almost unmentionable in Rock N Ice or Climbing was evidently a great experience for him. One of my most intense experiences was the Good Book a mere 5.6 in Yosemite. I wonder how many times each weekend other climbers are having similarly memorable experiences even on those routes over bolted “Girlfriend” routes. I remember an article years ago in Climbing about some 50 foot cliff somewhere in the Midwest. The cliff was nothing, the routes were nothing but the writer was so excited about climbing there that his enthusiasm made the article one to be remembered. Where are articles like that today?

 

[Mike]

Don't even have to do hard routes to get away from the crowds - a little hard core bushwacking thins out the crowds too.

[dan_e]

This is a tired topic, we all know there are crowds and we know they will be around for a while. You need to find ways to work around the problem, or try (good luck) to solve the problem. I think the numbers will peak someday, when the ones who picked it up as "the current fad" will move on to other things. I've been climbing 10 years and I intend on climbing until I am no longer able, but this does not mean I have more of a right to be out there than someone who learned yesterday. On a side note I think this planet needs another mass extinction!

[nolanr]

Amen Dane. I think the fact that homo sapiens are still crawling around on planet earth disproves Darwin's ideas on evolution and survival of the fittest--mankind should have been naturally selected for extinction a long time ago!

On a lighter note, ditto that climbing will probably eventually peak in popularity and then ebb (especially roadside cragging). I grew up in White Salmon, WA, right across from Hood River, OR, the MECCA of windsurfing. Once upon a time it was all the rage and everybody was getting into it. There's certainly plenty of people who still surf, but it's not nearly as trendy and popular now as 5 or 10 years ago. And even in this day and age of mass popularity of climbing, I've had plenty of days or relative or absolute solitude. You just have to go where everybody else isn't.

[adr_901]

Climbing is no ones personal domain, and no one has any special rights to claim such. As climbing becomes more popular and routes more crowded, we as a community of climbers, are responsible for maintaining a strict ethic and passing that ethic to anyone we may mentor. Climbers as a whole respect this as a code of conduct and honor reguardless of our goals. With that in mind, we respect eachother no matter our ability level, age, gender, ect. If isolation is an issue, with some extra effort there are many places which you can find yourself the only human in sight. Sometimes thats good, sometimes not. We all put ourselves in harms way, and when trouble comes then we become truely indebted to those who help. On the other hand, my fondest memories were climbing in remote ares in Alaska, with nothing but the sound of crunching snow underfoot, and spectacular scenery, without evidence that humans ever existed.

The botton line is the good old days exist even now, it all depends on how we make them!

[Dru]

I'm all for mass extinction as long as it takes out you guys and I survive.

[Chongo]

" I'm all for mass extinction as long as it takes out you guys and I survive."

Right....YOU, YOU, and YOU! Out of the gene pool!

[Sky]

Donna-

You elitist b*tch. You are just another "oh-my-god-I-was-here-waaaaay-before-you"-complaining, stuck up snob. What the hell makes you think that you have any right to comment on who gets to go outdoors? If any of us wanted to experience that kind of high-hoarsery we'd go join a country club!!!!!!!!

[jblakley]

Dru,

Mass extinction with you as the sole survivor? Better obtain a huge supply of fresh palm razors. You'll need 'em!

[mikeadam]

QUOTE:

--------

Maybe in another 10 years it will be as bad as the Alps!

--------

Yeah, I hope so.

That's the most entertaining circus on the planet. I mean we gave them Disneyland...we can have a Redneck Chamonix in return. Once we get a telepherique up to Colchuck Col you'll be able to send Triple Couloirs in a few hours and then paraglide over to Stuart for a romp up the North Ridge and then back down to Cham...er Leavenix for a wheat beer with your mates who skied Cannon Couloir via the Cannon tramway.

Ahhhh paradise.....

[Dru]

blakey, it's not just gonna be me that survives a mass extinction, it's gonna be me and a bunch of beautiful actresses... and, unfortunately, Tom Jones too, it's gonna be just like the end of Mars Attacks.

When we're rebuilding society, there's gonna be a lot more important things to do than shave palms, boy, we're going to need that palm hair to avoid frostbitten hands!

[jblakley]

You, Tom Jones and actresses? Interesting offspring I'm sure. Like something from an X-Files episode.

Tom Jones based offspring: 'What's new pussycat wooo oo wooo oo woo'

Actress mom: 'Shut up Tom Jr and comb your palms'

LOL

[mattp]

Hey guys: What about Donna's original question? What do you think about the growth and commercialization of climbing? Like many others, I posted a response that said, in part, "that's just the way it is," but is that all there is to say on the topic?