Bolt-mania

[Tony_Bentley]

I must reply to all of these ethic debates. First of all the existance of climbers impacts the environment and the existance of new standards that overrule the old standards create contraversy and make more than one side to an ethics issue and that also impacts the environment because people act in the best interest of themselves and not the environment. I believe that in the best interest of the environment we shouldn't have fixed protection in the first place, but in the best interest of my life and my ability the bolts should stay. But if a climb can be rated in "Aid" but not freeable than leave it the fuck alone!!!

There are plenty of free routes.

 

[pope]

Tony,

For a pitch like the one everybody seems to be discussing here, it is instructive to do some kind of benefit analysis. Before the bolts, the rock looked similar to the way it did 100 years ago...actually, similar to the way it did millions of years ago when erosion unveiled it. Before the bolts, the environment suffered little. A few bold climbers enjoyed the pitch as a comprehensive test of their leading abilities in the traditional style. This particular pitch also provided an enormous amount of enjoyment to those who recognized that their low skill level and the risky nature of the route dictated a top-rope. A guy like me...a guy like you, unable and/or unwilling to develop the skill and courage, could have PERFECT safety on that route. Bolts were not necessary for making the route safe and accessible.

What bolts do give us is the chance to attempt a lead that we otherwise wouldn't be ready for. I can think of no other benefit, and I'm not sure this really is beneficial. But adding bolts certainly does permanently alter the environment....negatively. Bolts also deny highly skilled climbers the chance to test their traditional leading abilities, and bolts transform into a construction zone cliffs that have for decades been an escape from the city.

[Guest]

Excellent comments, "Pope"!!! It makes me almost regret my previous post in which I mentioned the fact that you CRAPPED IN YOUR OWN SLEEPING BAG! Let's just say, just for discussion purposes, that many agreed that bolts are generally inappropriate. There could be several actions:

We could advocate a moratorium on all further bolting, except, perhaps, maybe, to replace old crusty 1/4 inch belay bolts or those placed on traditional lead back when there were some standards (e.g. Peshastin Pinnacles). A self-imposed moratorium is a lot nicer than having "The Man" step in and legislate it as has been done elsewhere.

We could emphasize that it is poor form to establish "sport climbs" in the mountains or on trad crags and climbs.

We can suggest that those who have desecrated the crags or mountains with their bolts have the first option of erasing their own mess. (Kind of like "Pope" wiping down his soiled sleeping bag....if he bothered to do so....)

I think removing bolted routes isn't necessarily a bad idea, but, there are implications:

a) would we be creating an equally unsightly, mess? Anyone have ideas about quality rock restoration measures?

b) we should realize that there are (unfortunately) many guide-book and bolt dependent/addicted climbers. Could they somehow be put into their own jeopardy if, say, they have climbed several pitches of a multi-pitch climb only to find that their anticipated bolt-fest is now missing?

Loads of questions, here, few easy answers.

- Donna

[pope]

OK, now for the rest of the story. NOBODY CRAPPED OUT ON THE GLACIER AT NIGHT on the '98 Cirque expedition. Bitter cold winds had forced us to set up a Chouinard Pyramid over the hole we were using as a latrine (two climbers actually suffered frost bite on their tallywackers before we made this move).

One particular evening I visited this latrine tent five different times only to find DONNA TOP-STEP WITH TWO BRITISH CLIMBERS AND A YAK HAVING A FOUR-WAY IN THE LATRINE TENT. They must have been in there for six hours, and I had no choice but to attempt to crap in my own tent, using a Nalgene bottle to capture the turd. I missed the target because just as I was about to release the critter, I STEPPED ON THE RAZOR I HAD BEEN USING TO SHAVE DONNA'S BACK.

Donna's story is, as you can see, thin on details, but otherwise factual except for the part about the sleeping bag: it was, of course, her bag.

And that's why I think we should reconsider the practice of bolting our crags.

[Wopper]

Are you people for real??

[Guest]

"Pope"!!!

You're killing what was becoming a great discussion about bolting which has produced a wide range of interesting opinions. Your comments about yaks and shaving my back are so absurd that you will quickly be losing your credibility. Stick to the topic, you jerk, and just to set the record straight:

There was no latrine tent on the 98 Cirque expedition although we had a cook tent. It only resembled a latrine when it was Pope's turn to cook. It's true that a couple of guys got their li'l wee-wee's cold but they shouldn't have been waving them around writing their names or having sword fights or whatever it is that guys do with those things. After that, we built a latrine from snow blocks or carefully did our business in pee bottles or zip-lock bags.

As far as the two British climbers are concerned, that's a load of nonsense. It was an Italian with two personalities and at least he (or they?) sends me a birthday card every year. If there was a razor on our expedition, it was probably to shave your bushy mono-brow, Pope!

So lets hear some bolting comments. I offered a couple of interesting questions above until "Pope" had to pop-off yet again. Believe it or not, he's actually quite bright when he's not obsessing over his failed sexual conquests. Hey, Pope! If you were the only climber I knew, I'd tell my gurlfriends to avoid the whole group; a subject for future discussion.

Chop and restore? Implications of chopping?

(See post above, prior to "Pope's" moronic yak comments.)

- Donna

P.S. It WAS Pope's own sleeping bag.

[Drederek]

Thanks to everyone who posted. This is the best Topic I've read since I registered. I have seen many differing viewpoints on a topic I am most interested in as well as some great personal histories. As someone who enjoys the WWF more than pro sports - this is what I log on for. Bolts are a dilemma for me. I don't believe I would be as good a climber today if I hadn't been clipping bolts since I began climbing. It was a great way to increase my skills. As I got better and started seeking more challenge I started putting together a rack and leading trad and mixed routes. The last few years I have been trying to do mostly multipitch but to stay in shape I hit the sportclimbing areas. And there are some sportclimbs I really like. I see it as two different sides of a coin, or better faces of a polygon. Some climbs should be trad and some should be rad. The dilemma is when my perception of how a climb should go differs from that of whoever put the route up. I am not the boldest climber out there but I've led some R and X pitches that made me think why in the hell didn't they pound one lousy bolt in so a guy wouldn't die here? So I vow not to do pitches like that. I don't feel bad for clipping the bolts on Mary jane dihedral. I did feel cheated on Condormorphine even though I skipped some bolts and ran the crux pitches together. I guess the people putting climbs up/retrobolting have a lot of things to consider when they provide us with a climb. Some way to preserve diversity seems necessary, My way or the highway is a dead end. D

[Teogo]

If everything goes, will everything go? It's sad when a peice of climbing history however great or small is erased by making it more accessible to the rest of us. In 200 years climbers will look at the Bachar-Yerian in Toulomne and say "Who the hell was this guy?!" This guy Bachar did this on lead? On sight? As opposed to clipping another bolt ladder. Would I want every climb in the world to be as run-out? Of course not, but lets leave room for inspiration....if not for me for lots of other folks.

[pms]

I am someone whose opinion was solicited before the recent bolts were added to DDD. I didn’t really think it was my place to say one way or another, but gave an enthusiastic thumbs up, with the suggestion to keep some of the adventure on the upper two thirds. After reading some of the comments here, I feel different now. Because Castle Rock belongs to everyone, next time I would recommend installing tope-rope anchors to begin with. This would give folks a chance to do the climb, debate the issues, number of bolts, etc. No reason to rush a decision that everyone cares so much about. Perhaps popular opinion would be against adding bolts, and if so I would support that.

Now that it has been bolted, let’s see what folks are saying a year or two from now. I expect that most folks who do the climb will agree with the current placements, and number of bolts. If not, careful removal of a bolt or two is probably an option. To those who oppose all bolts, remember that bolts have been used at Castle Rock from the beginning. To anyone contemplating chopping I would ask, please climb the route first to gain more perspective. I’m also interested to hear what the people who have led the climb without the bolts think? I’m also wondering what it would it be like to lead the climb without clipping the bolts? Is this too radical of an idea?

I think it’s debatable whether or not bolts “damage the rock”. Certainly there is impact, but even you Donna (by being there) have impact. Roads, concrete, and steel are what I consider “damage”, yet even these are acceptable to me when well planned.

I’ve been thinking how much I’ve enjoyed climbing at Castle Rock over the years, and look forward to many more. Adventure is one quality I personally would like to see retained in our sport, but see no shortage. I would also like to be able to enjoy a good sport route now and then. Having recently climbed the Condorphamine alpine sport route, I thought it was one of the nicest, fun climbs I’ve done in the Icicle Canyon.

Thanks to Donna for starting this discussion. It’s an important issue and important to hear what people think.

pms

 

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[This message has been edited by pms (edited 05-22-2001).]

[mattp]

Good comments! The idea that these are public resources and that we who take it upon ourselves to alter them are acting as custodians and should be accountable to other climbers (and nonclimbers too, I suppose) and respectful of the opinions of others is sometimes lost in the pursuit of fame and fortune or obscured by the belief that we know what is needed to "improve" a route. The possibility that a project such as the retrobolting of DDD might be undertaken in stages, to encourage public comment, is (to me at least) a novel idea and one that is probably a good one in a place like Castle Rock, where a long climbing history and high number of users will mean that any alterations are in fact likely to see great public comment. I don't mean to suggest that it doesn't matter what you do where nobody is looking, but it is certainly a different situation on a more remote and perhaps less historic crag. And yes, I would sure hate to see somebody now go and butcher the route by chopping the bolts even though I have mixed feelings about their being installed.

[FW]

This is probably common knowledge, but Dan Davis and Pat Callis did the first accent in 1963.

Dan would probably laugh his ass off if he knew that a route he did 38 years ago with shitty equipment and none of the high tech things we all have at our disposal is now bolted.

Maybe the guy who did placed the bolts can head on over to the Tooth and place some there for the climbers 40 years from now.

[max]

I'm looking around cc.com for some good anti-bolt shit. Seriously. I'm in CO and the bolt scene here is ridiculous! Try this one...

http://www.climbingboulder.com/rock/db/shelf_road/cactus_cliff/crynoid_corner.html

So I remembered all that went down with dana's dreadful direct, did a search, and came up with this. I read through tthe post and it just made me laugh laugh laugh. I love this place! (in retrospect, I can't believe the shit that comes out of my mouth!) So ya'll should read through this for a good ol' fashion cc.com sprayfest!

 

As a side note, CO does have a serious bolt problem. Sport climbing's the norm around here and WA kicks CO ass when it comes to trad climbs.

 

 

 

 

[Dwayner]

"Crynoid Corner - 5.7

FA: Unknown

Pro: 9 draws to a 2 bolt anchor

Details: This route is located directly up from the parking area at Cactus Cliff. Very prominent BOLTED CRACK at the far right. This is a well protected route making it a very good beginner lead. "

 

WEAK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It sounds so matter-of-fact it makes you wonder if some of the people are completely unaware that such a bolt-fest might be considered controversial. You want bolt flame-war? It's right below the surface for many of us.

 

- Dwayner

 

[cracked]

That's pretty fucking pathetic. Let's keep the bolted cracks in Europe.

[chriss]

Don't judge trad climbing in Colorado by going to Shelf, or Rifle or any of the sport areas.

Try Turkey Rock, or Sheep's Nose, lot's of stuff in the South Platte. Go to Lumpy Ridge, or Eldorado, and you'll see where "trad"ition came from.

 

 

chris

[JayB]

Max:

 

You still in CO? Ever make it back out to Lincoln?

 

As far as bolting in CO goes, I hear what you are saying but generalizing the bolting ethos that prevails in Boulder Canyon and Shelf Road and generalizing it to cover all of the state seems like a bit of a stretch to me, as would claiming that the route development at Exit 38 and Vantage is characteristic of all climbing in Washington.

 

I never climbed in Boulder Canyon, but put in a lot of days at Shelf and loved the place. Hundreds of routes to choose from, warm-sunny days even in the winter, quality rock, incredible scenery, and cool folks from all over the world to chat with. There were a few overbolted lines there, but there were also plenty of routes sporting first bolts high enough to do some damage, crater potential up to the third bolt, bad rock, jingus homemade hangers, etc if that's what you were looking for.

 

 

There were also a number of bolted cracks there, but I can't remember there being much controversy concerning them, as from what I could tell the consensus was that things that would be unthinkable elsewhere were permissible at Shelf. I asked about one crack in particular (Dihedrus was the name, I think) with a passerby and he claimed that the bolters checked in with the FA's prior to bolting trad lines and that they had given the green light to go ahead. Assuming that was the case, if the FA's had no problem with it, neither did I. And neither should anyone reading this at their computer half-way across the country, either IMO, unless it was wildly inconsistent with the local ethics (it's not).

 

While there are some ethical lines that virtually everyone agrees should not be crossed (chipping, bolting artificial holds onto the rock, wearing neon spandex, etc) I think that respecting local ethics is the only way to keep the peace and prevent senseless bolt wars from errupting. If the locals that have developed the climbing at Shelf want to bolt cracks, I say leave them be. If the way they have developed the crags is inconsistent with your personal vision for what's acceptable in terms of route development, don't climb there. There's plenty of other places to go in CO where bolting cracks would be unthinkable, and a much different ethic prevails, such as:

 

Eldorado Canyon

Rocky Mountain National Park

Lumpy Ridge,

The South Platte (More of a geographic area than a crag, dozens and dozens and dozens of distinct crags to be found here)

Eleven Mile Canyon

Pikes Peak Crags,

Old Stage Road

Garden of the Gods

Colorado National Monument

Vedauwoo (Not actually in CO but its very close and shares the same ethic)

Lost Creek Wilderness Area

Meuller State Park

 

So yeah, there's a few bolted cracks in the limestone at Shelf, but I have a hard time believing that those who want old-school pant-loading trad experiences will ever run out of routes to choose from in CO.

 

[Dwayner]

Bro. JayB, he say:

"he claimed that the bolters checked in with the FA's prior to bolting trad lines and that they had given the green light to go ahead...Assuming that was the case, if the FA's had no problem with it, neither did I. And neither should anyone reading this at their computer half-way across the country, either IMO, unless it was wildly inconsistent with the local ethics (it's not)."

 

Who care's what the "FA"s have to say. It's wrong ,and so are they, no matter where I live. From what I read way up above, this is some of the same goofy logic applied to the Dan's Dreadful Direct fiasco and subsequent debate.

 

Dwayner

 

[Cpt.Caveman]

So who knows about the bolted route on Garfield? I want to climb the thing. Where does it start?

[JayB]

I heard it's on the main face of the west peak. I've been wanting to check out the 1960 line on that aspect for a while. Hopefully I'll make it out there when the weather turns warm.

[JayB]

Who care's what the "FA"s have to say. It's wrong ,and so are they, no matter where I live. From what I read way up above, this is some of the same goofy logic applied to the Dan's Dreadful Direct fiasco and subsequent debate."

 

Dwayner:

 

You've got your opinion, they've got theirs. If you can prove that yours is objectively true in any domain other than your own mind, then I'll nominate you to dicate what is and is not acceptable in terms of route development for all of mankind. Until such proof is forthcoming, you'll just have to live with the fact that your opinions on this matter are no more and no less valid than those belonging to the locals at Shelf in theoretical terms, and quite a bit less valid in practical terms since it is they, and not you, who call the shots out there.

 

Best Regards,

 

[cracked]

As for the post about dangerous sport climbs, here's my opinion. Leave the trad lines alone. If they are dangerous, leave them that way. Respect the ethics of the FA. On sport routes, however, if you're going to use bolts, use them intelligently. Having huge runouts to the first bolt, decking potential anywhere, homemade hangers, etc, is stupid. Bolts blemish the rock anyways, so make them worth it. Don't, however, indescriminately bolt everything in sight.

[Dwayner]

JayB....

"Dwayner:

 

"You've got your opinion, they've got theirs."

And???

 

"If you can prove that yours is objectively true in any domain other than your own mind, then I'll nominate you to dicate what is and is not acceptable in terms of route development for all of mankind."

 

Read some of the arguments above and a wealth of others that hold my same opinion. It's not just in "my mind". This is old stuff, man, and incorporates environmental and other issues. Your nomination of me as dictator will, unfortunately, hold little weight in this crowd. I will, therefore, appoint myself "Dictator of Route Development for All Mankind."

 

"Until such proof is forthcoming, you'll just have to live with the fact that your opinions on this matter are no more and no less valid than those belonging to the locals at Shelf in theoretical terms, and quite a bit less valid in practical terms since it is they, and not you, who call the shots out there."

 

No, I believe mine are more valid....that's why I maintain them. Unless these crack-bolters personally own the rock, I don't think they (F.A.'s or otherwise) have an exclusive right to determine how it might be used and abused. I also believe in expressing my opinion in hopes that some of the lesser-informed folks might get a clue that there is controversy surrounding their activities.

 

 

 

[allthumbs]

I think the only way to describe an overbolted rock is a miniature golf course for climbing. As the number of cars builds every weekend and the crowds swarm for overgraded, overbolted, and occasionally manufactured routes, you have to wonder when it will become part of Wally World or Spumonie Gardens. The Forest Service should lease these sites to a concessionaire so we can buy 5 dollar sodas in between burns on a chiseled 5.12 (or was it 5.10?). Get the official T-shirt! Quantities are limited.

...by another dude

[mattp]

A new discussion of this old issue may be due, but I wonder whether it belongs here. This historic thread is, in my view, most interesting in that one can compare positions taken here and then in the "DDD Restored" thread, and in then in subsequent discussions: Cavey, for instance, saying he wasn't in support of chopping the bolts; Retro, saying he would only chop them if there was "concensus" that he should do so (they were both involved in the intentionally confrontational presentation of their position on this issue after they removed the bolts). I, too, have changed my position on this issue in that I stated I wasn't into having the bolts removed from DDD at that time although I have later said that I am glad that it was done but I just didn't like the way in which the discussion was handled.

 

I'm not sure there is anything sacrosanct about an old cc.com thread (after all, it is only the internet...) but somehow I feel sad seeing an old discussion unearthed so we can just heap on more of the same old arguments (not that Max, Chris, Dwayner, JayB, Cracked or even Trask haven't said anything of value on this issue or that Cavey's inquiry about Garfield was at all out-of-line).

[allthumbs]

okay, let's talk about using llamas for the approach