Bolting a crack to "protect it from pins"....

[sexual_chocolate]

no answer.

 

eat butt chocolate and die.......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

are these lame ass threads ever going to end...?

 

perhaps we need another thread with pics of you and your goat?

 

or a biopic assemblage of your latest 6 foot boulder problem?

 

in other words: no.

[JosephH]

We have a winner!

Too bad Ron can't participate in this argument as I am sure he would have some interesting views. His artical (if I find the original I have buried away I will scan) on constructive scarring and his HAFWEN ( hammered anchors fixed where nessesary) routes were "revolutionary" when they were first expressed in Zion in the late 70's and 80's. Also seemingly contradictory were his routes in Snow Canyon and Boulder problems in Zion that were enhanced by the drill. We need Ron on this forum to show you all a thing or two!

 

While on another subject entirely I gave Ron the heads up we're bantering back and forth with his Dad, who knows, maybe he'll take a moment and lower his big hammer on the lot of us for taking his name in vain...

[mattp]

This thread demonstrates why we have pretty much never been able to have a real discussion of bolting or other similar issues on this board. It more or less boils down to a game of “gotcha” and a competition to see who can twist/manipulate/distort or put others down most effectively. Then when that fails to amuse, everybody heaps on out and out bullshit or completely irrelevant whatever and then pretend it is all a joke anyway. Too bad. There were some real issues buried in there.

 

 

 

Carry on.

[sexual_chocolate]

hey i think this discussion has been very fruitful, and has perhaps ended the disagreements regarding bolts and pins.

Why would you want to throw that all away?

[olyclimber]

Another way of looking at it though, Matt, is that the real discussion is in there. sure there is noise, but people are getting it out of their heads and onto a board for other people to read...true, what is in their heads isn't always pretty, is full of noise, and is often uncivil...but at least there is communication. and we're lucky to have cc.com for that. in this thread there are some good, thought out posts..perhaps some people prefer the relaxed environment of spray to put their ideas out there.

[catbirdseat]

Does it matter that useful discussion is padded by fluff? The fluff can be interesting too. Some people are drawn by that and occasionally post useful thoughts.

[DCramer]

I agree Matt. The BS on this site is amazing. It would be cool if there was a place people could discuss things without all the crap. I think it keeps even more interesting people and discussions away. Readers can read the linked thread get an idea of the route SC and I are discussing and come to their own conclusions as to what a new route means.

 

[Dru]

perhaps some people prefer the relaxed environment of spray to put their ideas out there.

 

Or perhaps some people prefer posting in a forum where the moderators are less likely to, say, delete the whole thread if it is revealed that one of those selfsame moderators illegally power drills in designated wilderness areas....

[mattp]

You guys have a valid point. Yes, there IS some real exchange of information in there. But really there is very little that is new, and I don't think anybody has any sense that there ever will be anything new said in any of these threads -- do you? The discussion virtually always if not absolutely always degenerates to some situation where somebody is calling somebody else an arrogant prick, two guys are arguing about some ridiculous semantic nuance, and anybody who really wants to try to deal with the issues is put down as being "too serious" or somebody tries to intimidate them to make them go away.

 

That is OK. It IS the cc.com that so many of us know and love. But our love of gamesmanship and bullshit comes at a price.

[Squid]

Its also good to remember that these discussions which seem nauseatingly familiar to you will be some kid's first introduction to 'the bolting debate.'

 

While there's nothing new in the thread for you, someone else is reading this shit for the first time.

[RuMR]

Matt/DCramer...

 

discussing bolting issues is like discussing politics and religion...people have their opinion and they are unlikely to change it...why must you diss this thread????? What's the point of that?

 

Pope deliberately put this in spray...that is what it is S P R A Y!

[sexual_chocolate]

I agree Matt. The BS on this site is amazing. It would be cool if there was a place people could discuss things without all the crap. I think it keeps even more interesting people and discussions away. Readers can read the linked thread get an idea of the route SC and I are discussing and come to their own conclusions as to what a new route means.

 

 

Dude, you're so full of crap. you don't answer direct questions (did you climb it? did you do all the moves?), you complain about spray, but you dive head-first into it with recriminations and accusations.

[olyclimber]

I agree Matt. The BS on this site is amazing. It would be cool if there was a place people could discuss things without all the crap. I think it keeps even more interesting people and discussions away. Readers can read the linked thread get an idea of the route SC and I are discussing and come to their own conclusions as to what a new route means.

 

 

DCramer, I know of such a place. A place where the "noise" isn't tolerated.

 

But unfortunately that place isn't too popular at this point....but the fact of the matter is that it does exist. But without anonymity, many people don't post there. I wonder if more people really would post without the spray.

[sexual_chocolate]

I think rumr has it right: it's spray.

 

you guys want some final answer, when it's obvious there isn't any final answer. people will discuss this stuff, argue and bicker, and at the end of the day, will the planet have stopped rotating? will all bolting controversies have come to an end? will dcramer finally have a clue? NO!

 

it will go on and on and on.

 

and? so what. in the big scheme of things, it just ain't all that important.

[mattp]

and? so what. in the big scheme of things, it just ain't all that important.

 

You are absolutely right. Like I said: carry on. This IS spray. But I'm just observing that it comes at a cost. That is all.

[sexual_chocolate]

ok so the last remark was a bit cynical.

 

but what's the cost?

[olyclimber]

civility

[catbirdseat]

I think it's great that people even argue about this topic, even if no "resolution" is reached. To hear some tell it, they don't even question it in places like France and Thailand. They just bolt everything and no one gives a shit.

[olyclimber]

dignity

[olyclimber]

decency

[tomtom]

dogma

 

[mattp]

ok so the last remark was a bit cynical.

 

but what's the cost?

 

That last remark was also partly true. It really isn't the end of the world if somebody takes a pot shot at somebody else on cc.com. At least not usually. Sometimes people actually get hurt, scared, or maybe even a law officer takes notes.

 

The cost is that, with the pattern being what it is, there is absolutely no incentive for somebody to even try to have a serious discussion around here. At least not after the third or forth time they get slapped in the face for trying to be real (some require three hundred slaps before they learn their lesson, and others never do).

 

Like I said, though: cc.com is what it is. We have a lot of fun here, and once in a while we actually learn something or meet a new climbing buddy on here. We trade lots of cool pictures, and it gives us something to do when we want to waste time at work.

[DCramer]

I wrote:

 

Except for the first 15' it had been climbed. The first 15' was squeezed in between Snow White and All Purpose Duck. SOme of the handholds on Dwarf are in fact footholds of All Purpose Duck. A section that had been {edit to add word free} led free onsight without bolts now has an additional 5 bolts.

 

 

 

So to clarify for those not know the route. After the first 10-15’ Dwarf Tossing (DT) joins All Purpose Duck (APD) and Snow White (SW). After 25’ or so APD veers right, DT/SW continues up (what else) SW. So in a pitch ending at the first ledge of SW we have 15' of new climbing. After that the route is same as the old Snow White. We freed APD thus my comment bolded above. We only claimed a first free ascent not the first ascent. We gave it the name APD because it had no name. I never claimed to have freed all of Snow White. Had I would have claimed the FFA not the FA. I will admit to failing on TR trying to free SW after doing APD and never returning. The title of the thread I linked to is:”Adding a bolt to Midnight Rock.” My question to SC was direct and cordial his response was as follows:

 

And, it wasn't a claim, it was a statement of fact: Dwarf Tosser WAS the best new route at Index (no quotes needed).

And it wasn't retro-bolted because before bolting, it didn't exist.

 

At the time I thought it was not a direct and honest answer. As I said later in the thread I can care less about the bolts. I was asking a direct question about bolting existing routes and offered silliness.

 

Readers can figure for themselves who is spinning.

 

[sexual_chocolate]

I would suggest that if someone wants to have a "serious" discussion about some topic, they don't put the thread in "spray". The moderators are expected to do a much tighter control job in non-spray threads.

 

I also think things can go too far, but when someone jumps in emotively in a "spray" topic, then complains about the "bs", that's silly and I can't take it seriously (not you in this case).

[Ireneo_Funes]

Its also good to remember that these discussions which seem nauseatingly familiar to you will be some kid's first introduction to 'the bolting debate.'

 

While there's nothing new in the thread for you, someone else is reading this shit for the first time.

 

Good point. The climber who starts out in the gym and has only climbed outside at Smith might never question the ethics of bolting. So as boring as this thread is, keep it going fellas. Though I have to say I don't think anyone cares about the Dwarf tossing/snow white/whatever subdebate...except maybe 2 people.