EWolfe Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 The 'medic' in me has to ask.....did you sustain any injuries? Besides some superficial scrapes? Read the thread before you post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EWolfe Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 If you can believe it, he walked away from this with a buised rib! After speaking with three different people who all sent this to me. The best we could come up with is he was placing gear that was too small. The first cam was a blue Metolius cam and the second cam that pulled was a blue Trango flexcam. These are both smaller than the Yellow Metolius cams which fill ruby's all the way to the anchor. He fell from the first crux. Perhaps he was saving his yellow's for the upper crux at the roof. Borrow or buy more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turn_one Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 yeah but if you look closely in the photo you will see this guy is not an octopus, which would be a prerequisite to place and subsequently clean this pitch with tricams. it would be funny to see tricams to 1" in a guidebook though. now that's f-ing funny!! i now have some comedic ammo against my 'my rack weighs 78lbs. because i have way too many tri-cams' climbing partner, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 your an idiot... Generally you want to make sure punctuation and spelling are correct in these kinds of statements... yerafuckbag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gosolo Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 (edited) It is quite possible that the gear never would have pulled had she not been using a GriGri. Nonsense, poopy-pants! No one can say for sure, but the GriGri could have made the difference between an ordinary leader fall and decking. The Catbird might be a poopy-pants, but he might also be right in this case. I don't let my belayer's use a gri-gri when I'm climbing gear routes. I hate to bring up an off the couch ANALyses but perhaps the pro was not adequate for the crack? LIke I mean, if he stuck the right size in the right crack like the cam manufacturer (and all of those fine how to climb and look stylish while doin it books) said, perhaps the grigri would be a non issue? I kinda think that might have sumtin to do with it... I really think that his hairdo is at fault though....Glad he is OK, but damn, let your hair down man...I wonder if he knew his pic was going to be posted all over the net? Edited November 22, 2005 by gosolo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattp Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 I am usually skeptical of the idea that a hard catch may cause pro to fail. In hard rock, anyway, I generally think your gear is usually either good or bad and even twice as much or half as much peak force probably won't make the difference, but in sandstone doesn the pro sometimes just rake out of the parallel sided crackes? If so, I suppose it could have made a difference here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gosolo Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 back in tha day I did a lot of climbin with old style friends at IC and throughout southern Utah. Only time I had a cam skate on me was when I knew it was possible cuz of the placement in Zions on Navaho sandstone. Indian Creek is pretty bomber rock. However, it is possible that a cam that is too small may skip and not bite. But lets say the belayer had a locked off ATC when the dude fell? Are you guys really tryin to say that the impact force of the grigri is higher than a locked off ATC? Personally, if I am worried about gear failing enough to warrant not using a grigri, I am then going to climb under the premise that the leader must not fall...On that climb it woulda been aid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billcoe Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Damn, how the hell do you fall flat-assed sideways onto a rock (even sandstone!) and only walk away with bruised ribs? I figure the kid has only 8 lives left...MAX! WTF is that? Rubber ribs? If we could figure that out and sell that, it might make helmets obsolete and us rich. Thanks A5 and John for the show. My mouth is open! Great pics! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glassgowkiss Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Those photo's are pure hindsight, esp for the belayer. Thank heavens the belayer had the foresight to use a Gri-Gri, which, in hindsight, was a really good idea! stick to bolt clipping laddy. actually gri- gri most likely caused both pieces to fail wich caused the grounder. each tool has it's aplication and you can't give a dynamic belay with a gri-gri. gri- gri is for sport climbing only! topic closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 ....Only time I had a cam skate on me was when I knew it was possible cuz of the placement in Zions on Navaho sandstone. Indian Creek is pretty bomber rock. Go climb 3AM and Incredible Hand Crack and look at all the troughs carved into the rock by pulled cams. Wingate sandstone is good for sandstone, but it's still pretty soft. Are you guys really tryin to say that the impact force of the grigri is higher than a locked off ATC? Yes. This fact has been well demonstrated in tests by some lab or other (I can't remember which). I think the data were posted on here not that long ago. The primary factor was probably a cam that was too small as AFIVE pointed out in the first post, but the use of the Gri-gri didn't help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 And the non-use of pink tricams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alpinfox Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 And the non-use of pink tricams. Well yes. Of course. That's obvious. OK, I did a quick google search: A quote from: Alpine Club of Canada tests "The 'static' devices such as the Grigri (there may be rope slip through the device of 2 to 5 cm, while it is 50 to 120 cm for a dynamic device) may produce twice the force on the last runner than a dynamic device." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 And the non-use of pink tricams. Tricams should bite into sandstone and hold quite well, if you could manage to fiddle one in. Here's your application for JosephH modifications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ireneo_Funes Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 didn't you guys hear? topic is closed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gosolo Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Catbirdseat, I like tricams as much as the next guy, but fiddling with them on a sustained IC crack is for the ultra hard man... And I hate to beat a dead horse, I mean I can relate to slippage and stuff but here is what that post said alpinfox.... 1. The greatest variable in the magnitude of the force at the top runner is operator behaviour. Values can vary between 20 to 50 percent. Hand pressure and position, reaction time, position of operator and body mass have significant influences. 2. All belay devices seem to work, although the force in the top runner may vary. 3. The force in the top runner is surprisingly small (even if there is only one runner, i.e. very little system friction). It appears that the force in the top runner will rarely reach 10 kN (it did not even come close in the tests). The values fall mostly between 3 and 6 kN. This is independent of fall height (theoretical fall factor). Note again that operator behaviour has a major influence. 4. The 'static' devices such as the Grigri (there may be rope slip through the device of 2 to 5 cm, while it is 50 to 120 cm for a dynamic device) may produce twice the force on the last runner than a dynamic device. 5. The lifting of the operator may reduce the force on the top runner, possibly by as much as 10 % and even more. It is again influenced by operator behaviour. Sometimes no significant reduction could be determined. 6. Lifting of the operator beyond 30 to 40 cm has no influence on the magnitude of the force in the top runner. 7. Lifting of the operator may increase the stance load. These forces are, however, not very significant. Generally from two to three kN except for the 'static' devices, which could produce twice these values. The latter were always attached to the fixed anchor, because of injury concerns. 8. The force on the top runner increases with the mass of the operator. 9. It is highly recommended that a dummy runner is used at the belay. I dont usually climb with a grigri for multipitch trad or sport simply because it is extraneous and weighty. It does say that the impact force for a grigri is twice that as a belay device but from the results that means 3-6 kN. And does this mean good belay technique like the article infers? I got to hand it to you, if you guys can determine the force that your placements can take you are good. But hey, I am a proponent of the hip belay man, looks like that is where it is at... Most of my climbing in IC was in the 80's and fortunately, I did not have to see it being overrun and notice the skate marks...Memories of places are sometimes better left as memories. If there is more information on the topic, I like to think that I am an old dog that can still learn new tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Those photo's are pure hindsight, esp for the belayer. Thank heavens the belayer had the foresight to use a Gri-Gri, which, in hindsight, was a really good idea! stick to bolt clipping laddy. actually gri- gri most likely caused both pieces to fail wich caused the grounder. each tool has it's aplication and you can't give a dynamic belay with a gri-gri. gri- gri is for sport climbing only! topic closed. SHUT UP BOB...that is total ass bullshit...one inch of movement by the belayers hips results in some dynamic action... those cams did not fail because of the belayer, period, now you can close the book... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 What is a "dummy runner" used at the belay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 a slack leash that will allow some movement, but will arrest total lift off of the belayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 or what happens when i give polishedknob a knock on the head and tie him to the ground... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catbirdseat Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 a slack leash that will allow some movement, but will arrest total lift off of the belayer. I already use that. That's good practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 or what happens when i give polishedknob a knock on the head and tie him to the ground... actually I think that's called a donkeypunch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuMR Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 actually, it'd be a clown punch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraysovereign Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Damn, how the hell do you fall flat-assed sideways onto a rock (even sandstone!) and only walk away with bruised ribs? From the last couple of photos, it looks to me like the rope was coming tight at the moment of impact. Not by much, maybe, but enough to save his ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayB Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 I think that thus far the technical commentary in this thread has failed to address the advantages of selecting a belayer with the appropriate mass when determing whether a "hard" or "soft" catch will be most desirable for certain lines. Get yourself an anorexic jockey for a belayer, and outfit him with the largest backpack that his frame can reasonably accomodate. In those events when a shorter fall and a harder catch are desirable, simply fill the said backpack with dirt, sand, stones, jugs of water, etc until you have achieved the optimal mass. In those events where a softer catch is desired, plying your belayer with diuretics and/or equiping pieces with pulleys can be advantageous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra_Commander Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 a thorough geomag study of the locale will also reveal where gravity is at its lowest. only climb routes in this area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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