Mad Rock *Mountaineering Boots*

[jordop]

$199 holy shit

 

Jesus, that's sounds like a good deal, 1/2 price Kayland M10s

[catbirdseat]

Don't expect a pair for Christmas- not available until 2006.

[layton]

i'm hopefully demoing a pair this winter although for that price there basically a retail prodeal. look good

[cj001f]

i'm hopefully demoing a pair this winter although for that price there basically a retail prodeal. look good

Do you (or I) get a referral bonus if I mention your name?

 

That was actually semi-serious; they look like a nice replacement for my Garmont Towers that are almost worn out.

[layton]

When i (hopefully) get a pair i'll let ya know. Mentioning my name will not get you very far in this world.

[darstog]

So remember back to like 2002, when this company called Mad Rock came out with rock shoes called Phoenix, Mugen, Flash, etc. that were like 60% percent of the cost of "comparable" rock shoes? And we (or at least I) were all excited, because we all like to spend a little less on gear? And then we found out they were made in China? And we normally like things that are made in the US, or in Italy, Spain, or wherever because there's a noticable difference in quality, but we figure "well, for 60% percent of the cost of a similiar shoe, I'll take a look at them." And then they actually came out and they sold like hotcakes. And I took more than a few looks at the Mad Rock climbing shoes. And you could tell that they were made "offshore". The quality of craftmanship was far, far inferior to those of the domestically made rock shoes. And then do you remember what happened to the rock shoe industry? It changed dramatically. Since so many people were buying so many shoes almost entirely based on price, the competition had to lower it's prices and take some other measures to compete. So shoes like the 5.10 moccasym started being produced in Mexico so that they could be made a little cheaper. Did anybody ever see any of the Moccasyms that were made in Mexico? Good god were they awful. But I figured, all of these foreign made shoes are first-run models, the quality will get better. And then the quality didn't get better. And then Montrail came out with climbing shoes. And I've now had 5 pairs of Montrails (all of which were either given to me or I got for a few bucks off the rep) and all 5 pairs have delaminated and all 5 pairs climbed without the precision or the sensitivity of their competitors. And when I've talked to employees of the company, I've actually gotten the response, "you should see where the shoes are made," insinuating that I shouldn't expect much more. And quality of rock shoes was declining more and more. So now companies like La Sportiva make little or no money off their best selling rock shoe, the Cliff, in the US because they've had to lower their price a good deal and combined with the "strength" of the US dollar, it's not a real winning proposition. And then the 5.10 Coyote rock shoe came out and the 5.10 Sapphires that are being made entirely overseas. Great quality there, too.

So now it's 2005 and this company called Mad Rock is coming out with this mountaineering boot, the Alpinist, and it's going to be like 60% of the price of comparable mountaineering boots. And some people are all excited, because we all like to spend a little less on our climbing gear...

I don't want to be a miser, and although I don't know Layton, I'm psyched as hell that he's landed a deal with them because he's obviously deserving of it. But I pulled out my La Sportiva Trango Extreme S's this morning, just to make sure. And yeah, they retailed for like $350. But there on the label is "Made in Italy". And, honestly, they're amazing. They're so well made. They walk like a dream. I totally trust those boots, probably more than my ability on the terrain they're meant to handle. And today at the gym I'm letting a friend of mine borrow my Muira's. And dear lord do the Muira's climb like champs. Again, they're better shoes than I am a climber (Made in Italy stamped on them). And I'll probably climb in my Moccasym's (Made in USA), again footwear that performs better than I do. Or maybe I'll climb in my Evolv's (who have their uppers made overseas but do all the rands, soles, technical stuff in the US) and they're the shit too. Do the Montrail Karma, the Mad Rock Loco, or the Oversea Crapola, compare to these shoes? Not really. Am I a complete hypocrite and have gone through 5 pairs of Montrails? Yep. Are most of my clothes, etc, made overseas? Yeah, aren't yours. But I try to buy US when I can and I will only buy rock shoes made stateside or in Italy (didn't bother resoling one of my Montrails, though I have 2 pairs of sportivas and a 2 pairs of 5.10s waiting for resoles). Again, am I pissed at the people who wear Mad Rock shoes or do I blame Layton for accepting some gear from them? No, I've done the same. But if you ask me if I wish I'd never heard the name "Mad Rock," I might say yes. I think they've seriously damaged the rock shoe industry, I'm concerned about what will happen with Mountaineering boots if these take off (Don't get me started on the sieve-like Montrail Ice-9 boots, remember those?). I'll retract any and all of this if they're hiring.

[layton]

Great point. But I destroy pretty much every piece of footwear from sandals to ice climbing boots in a year, anyways so might as well get a cheaper model.

 

I'll worry about who makes what where when Americans start working the shitty jobs they complain that are being taken away. I've worked in several factories from gluing cereal boxes shut to assembling boat parts and i was the only "American" in there anyways except for the foreman with the assosiates degree in ashholery.

[Figger_Eight]

What Darstog said.

[John Frieh]

Jesus, that's sounds like a good deal, 1/2 price Kayland M10s

 

I think you mean the M11 ... do you? I don't think Kayland makes a M10.

 

I can agree that Madrock's shoe kinda looks like the M11 but that is about it.

 

With that said of course these boots are half the price of a pair of M11s... they are made with cheaper materials by unskilled labor.

 

Case in point:

 

They are using fake leather in the boot (kayland uses real leather):

polyester synthetic upper with foam insulation

 

and foam instead of Primaloft (what Kayland uses) for insulation. Since when is foam (open or closed cell) as good as insulator as primaloft?

 

Furthermore the M11 has a waterproof/breathable eVENT lining... the Madrock makes no mention of anything...

 

It is also apparent that the designer isn't an alpine climber... all alpine boots (look at La Sportiva, Scarpa, Garmont, Lowa etc etc) don't use metal eyelets near the toe so that when you jam the boot in a crack you don't get the eyelets pushing into your toes. Kayland (and everyone else for that matter) don't use metal eyelets anywhere on the lower portion of the boot.

 

The Kayland M11 also has a built in gaiter and it's exterior is built from the same material shark-handlers use for their gloves. Mad Rock doesn't have a gaiter and uses generic kevlar.

 

In their description (or anywhere on that website):

 

Attention Peakbaggers: Mad Rock heads for the mountains to bring you a completely waterproof, lightweight mountaineering boot. Ditch those unwieldy alpine boots, our Mad Rubber # 5 lug sole features a full shank that is rigid enough to hold a step-in crampon, yet still allows a slight rock in your step for those long approaches. Fully adjustable gusseted tongue and low friction hardware eyelets create a fit that conforms to your hardworking feet. The open cell foam lining wicks away sweat and is quick drying back in base camp. Durable Kevlar polyester synthetic upper with foam insulation keeps your feet warm while your waiting out unexpected weather or postholing down in slush. All the warmth of a plastic without the clunk. Look for them on the summit of a fourteener this winter

 

They offer no technical specifications... what type of insulation? What type of shank? Shank material? Weight?

 

I think the price makes absolute sense... cheaply built boot at a cheap price. For those who only venture out 1-2 times a year... Sure! Save some money and get a boot that can handle a few laps up Adams every year.

 

But if you fit into the category of "I trash my boots in year" or are just someone that is more than a casual user than chances are you will trash this boot in 4-6 months (assuming you don't lose some toes to the foam insulation). And at the end of each year you will be out the same... 400 for 2 pairs of madrocks or 440 for 1 pair of kaylands... though I want to meet the guy or gal who can trash a pair of kaylands in a year.

[John Frieh]

Oh yeah... What Darstog said.

[cj001f]

Oh no, they were made in China! Like my outerwear, my computer, my cellphone, my camera,.... clearly those slant eyes can't make anything hightech

[JayB]

Good points.

 

Anyone remember what happened when Honda and Datsun and Toyota introduced those cars that were less expensive, more reliable, and more fuel efficient back in the 70s? Now look where we are? We had the Pinto, the Gremlin, and the Pacer - now we're stuck with these freaking Camry's that last 15 years and 300,000 miles. Argh.

 

What really makes my blood boil those Asian and German auto manufacturers that have invested all of that capital and outsourced all of those high-paying jobs to the US....

 

Seriously though - anyone who wants to be competitive while producing labor intensive consumer goods in the US is going to have to compete on overall value, and use technology to increase productivity and quality.

 

This is not impossible. For an example of one company that's making it work, take a look at Oregon's own Beyond Fleece. They've been doing pretty-well as far as I can tell. They handle ordering and distribution over the web, and use advanced machinery to reduce production costs. After you send in your measurements and specify the options you want on your garmets, their software calculates the dimensions of the cuts, robots do the cutting, and then local staff handle the sewing.

 

When I bought a pair of custom pants from them, I sent in my measurements on a Monday and had them a week later. Free-shipping, perfect-fit, and a lifetime guarantee on the workmanship - all for less than a pair of mass-produced pants.

[Dru]

I seem to recall JordoP complaining about a pair of La Sportiva Trango's that fell apart in a week... and now he's hyped about a cheaper boot from another company that will do the same thing.

[PaulB]

I'm concerned about what will happen with Mountaineering boots if these take off

I have a pair of Salomon SM9s that were made in Italy. When I started looking at some of Salomon's current products as replacements, I'm pretty sure I found that at least some of them are made in China. Obviously, one boot manufacturer has made the change already.

[Figger_Eight]

For simple commodity goods that don't require a high degree of craftsmanship, overseas production with low cost labor simply makes a lot of sense. However you can't deny the higher quality of goods made by companies that produce in smaller batches with more attention to detail, materials and qc, irregardless of what country they come from. Beyond Fleece IS a good example - they use good manufacturing techniques, a high level of qc and good materials - and they can only retain that level of service if they keep it local. I guarantee you, though, if they tried to increase production to the scale of the REI's, TNF's, Marmots, etc. they couldn't afford to stay here and would have to send it overseas.

 

A well built climbing shoe/boot has enough intricate and involved labor incorporated into it that they can only be produced in small numbers, by human hands. You can definitely tell which La Sportivas are made in China and which ones are made in Italy.

 

I don't have anything against things being made overseas, but to say goods that require any amount of handtooling to make it of the highest quality are just as good mass produced as the small batch manufactured equivalent product is simply wrong. That's why Beyond Fleece works, Arcteryx stays in Vancouver, Western Mountaineering and FF stay at home as well.

 

High tech products have absolutely no relevance to this discussion. And..."slant eyes"? Are you serious?

 

If you want to talk about cars, let's not forget early Hyundais and Daihatsus.

[John Frieh]

For simple commodity goods that don't require a high degree of craftsmanship, overseas production with low cost labor simply makes a lot of sense. However you can't deny the higher quality of goods made by companies that produce in smaller batches with more attention to detail, materials and qc, irregardless of what country they come from. Beyond Fleece IS a good example - they use good manufacturing techniques, a high level of qc and good materials - and they can only retain that level of service if they keep it local. I guarantee you, though, if they tried to increase production to the scale of the REI's, TNF's, Marmots, etc. they couldn't afford to stay here and would have to send it overseas.

 

A well built climbing shoe/boot has enough intricate and involved labor incorporated into it that they can only be produced in small numbers, by human hands. You can definitely tell which La Sportivas are made in China and which ones are made in Italy.

 

I don't have anything against things being made overseas, but to say goods that require any amount of handtooling to make it of the highest quality are just as good mass produced as the small batch manufactured equivalent product is simply wrong. That's why Beyond Fleece works, Arcteryx stays in Vancouver, Western Mountaineering and FF stay at home as well.

 

High tech products have absolutely no relevance to this discussion. And..."slant eyes"? Are you serious?

 

If you want to talk about cars, let's not forget early Hyundais and Daihatsus.

 

Nailed it again Well said

[jordop]

I seem to recall JordoP complaining about a pair of La Sportiva Trango's that fell apart in a week... and now he's hyped about a cheaper boot from another company that will do the same thing.

Exactly same fabric too

 

Some good points here, though I have found, paradoxically, that the $90 China outsourced Trango Guides PMS sold me to be about the best approach shoe I have ever worn, WAY more durable than their $350 Italian bretherens.

 

I think the vast majority of China crap is just that. However, a friend of mine who sources maufacturing for a local climbing soft goods company tells me that quality shit CAN be made there, you just have to seek it out and demand it.

 

I wouldn't expect these things to last like a pair of premium Scarpas . . . NOTHING lightweight lasts, no matter who makes it. Synthetic Kevlar BS will always fall apart.

[whidbey]

Is it just me or does this look just like my Solomon boots?... hell. make them orange and presto...same boot? Sure look like it.

[PaulB]

That's why Beyond Fleece works, Arcteryx stays in Vancouver, Western Mountaineering and FF stay at home as well.

From a similar thread to this one on TTips, it seems that while Arc'Teryx still makes their technical outerware in Vancouver, some of their more "urban" ware is made in China and Mexico, while some of their packs are made in Vietnam. The global economy is a bitch to compete in, so you do what you gotta do to stay financially healthy and (hopefully) keep your customers happy.

[cj001f]

A well built climbing shoe/boot has enough intricate and involved labor incorporated into it that they can only be produced in small numbers, by human hands. You can definitely tell which La Sportivas are made in China and which ones are made in Italy.

Funny, as climbing boots have started to weigh & act more like running shoes, they've started to be made similarly as well. The last dozen of my running shoes have been made in china; I wish some of my climbing wear was as well made. These aren't Roughout leather Norwegian welted mountain boots we are talking about.

[Hayduke]

I believe the Chinese can and will make boots that are high in quality and inexpensive-- not cheap. There was a time when "Made in Taiwan" meant it was a Happy Meal toy, now it means D-RAM.

 

There is a developing social class in Asia-- a leisure class. The Japanese have had a leisure class for some time and now Korea, Taiwan and even Mainland China are enjoying the kind of economic prosperity that allows for society to enjoy wasteful wonton activities such as climbing. I've been in climbing shops in Tokyo, Seoul, Taipei and Beijing and there is a market for high quality products. I would say the Japanese appreciate high quality goods the most-- ever notice that patagonia has a store in Tokyo?

 

I think the term "ethnocentric" has to be applied to climber/consumers who think only western craftsman can produce quality gear. Don't be xenophobic...

 

Just an opinion from someone who thinks free trade is good for everyone.

 

[Weekend_Climberz]

Hey Micheal,

 

How did these boots hold up for you??