Ethics questions...

[mattp]

"prevailing opinion" - pretty much sums up the future of grid bolting as [generations of] gym climbers righteously demand "adequate" protection (and "safe climbing") while they seek to [assbackwardly] emulate their indoor clipping experience outdoors.

 

You could easily get this impression if you talk to climbers at sport crags and ask them what they think about this or that overbolted route. I have gotten dumb stares along with replies like "why would we want fewer bolts?"

 

Assuming they learned in a gym, it is not hard to understand how they might have a different vision for the sport. Where they learned, everything is pre-marked with tape so the sequence is largely something you don't have to figure out on your own, the bolts are laid out to prevent you from ever climbing above your anchor point; bright colors, corporate logo's, hard bodies, and loud music are the dominant aesthetic. In terms of accomplishment or performance, the emphasis is on pure athletic performance rather than any element of adventure, routefinding or appreciation of a semi-natural setting.

 

However, the very fact that many gym-trained climbers head "outside" (a significant and vaguely intimidating step for most of them) shows that they are probably looking for something the gym doesn't offer. In many cases (not all), that includes a greater sense of adventure and a quest to learn "trad" or ultimately to pursue alpine rock climbs.

 

If all they were interested in was the pure athletic performance of crimping on ever smaller edges and mastering the figure four or whatever, they could more easily pursue that by going to the gym three nights a week. If you want to share with them your vision of a more adventurous sport and promote a different aesthetic, it is probably not going to help to tell them how an entire generation of climbers is assbackwards, lacks intelligence, and caters to the "lowest common denominator" -- even if you are confident that you are correct in your assessment. I'm sure you know this. How do you present these ideas when you meet someone at the crag?

[archenemy]

I fall on lead a lot. That doesn't mean I am going to top rope everything. It does mean redpoint doesn't mean shit to me.

Such is the non-sporting woman's dilemma.

[billcoe]

I have a question on altering established routes. So say the first ascentionist has died and I want to add another bolt/piton/fixed gear. How do I go about getting permission to retrobolt/nail if I can't get the FA's permission?

I am not considering doing this at all, it's just a hypothetical question that noone I know has been abe to agree on an answer. What do you think?

 

Before this thing gets put in spray: let me say I think its a good question. You are so correct that no one can agree on it too.

 

Generally I believe that if you can't ask the FA, unless you are positive it is the correct thing to do: and have discussed it endlessly with everybody concerned, probably best to walk away and just go do another route don't you think?

 

If everybody buys in, ie "dude, thats a great idea" kind of response, and really, that means everybody, not say a handful of gym buddies, then it's not only an easy call to put the bolt in, but it's the right thing to do. Otherwise, walking away, toproping the route or something else should be the correct course of action would you not agree?

 

Note that I started out by saying "I believe". Your results may vary.

[ashw_justin]

the TeamREI phenomenon that is replicating a gym experience outside instead of the other way around...

 

It's like RuMR said. I know there must have been a time when noone would lead a route with the intention of taking a lead fall. But today, most climbers spend 90% of their time in the gym doing exactly this, and then going outdoors looking for shit to fall off of. Otherwise it's too easy and a waste of their precious urbanite time, to climb carefully and in control on -gasp- a slightly easier route.

[archenemy]

Your results may vary.

Isn't that the point?

[gosolo]

Here are some Generalities that anyone who learned to climb post 1990 ought to consider. Why did I use 1990? Because by then Gyms were starting, and sport climbing was pretty well established

 

1. In the old days it was about minimal impact to the rock. If a climb seems real bold it was because the FA was trying to preserve the rock for the next generation-not build a fuckin bolt trail so you could fall your way up it.

2. If you still call FA's on real rock "coursesetting" either learn the difference between real rock or go back to the fuckin gym. On real rock you simply climb what is provided. That is unless you are chipping then you may very well be a "coursesetter". It is ill advised to claim you are that type of course setter.

3. Think you are a 5.10 climber? Try tossing the rope away? What grade do you climb at then? Is this not closer to your real climbing ability? This may be the extreme, but the fact is if you climb 5.13 in the gym, but cant climb a 5.10 offwidth you are not a 5.13 climber and not a 5.10 climber either.

4. IT used to be not all about the NUMBERS, but rather the experience. When sport climbing came into being, the big cry was "we need to increase our standards to keep up with the euros!". I wondered whose standards they weere increasing. Not mine. The standard they were increasing was the RATINGS. But what about that 5.10X. The one with little or no bolts. The one where you didnt even try unless you had your absolute shit together at that grade? Who is increasing that standard?

 

I like all kinds of climbing, but dont let your ignorance lead you to believe that some runout route was done because the guy was poor. Dont think that the FA team had an obligation to make it safe for you, that is utter bullshit. I do think when rapping and drilling a route that there is an obligation to make it safe, but ground up is different. Unfortunatley it is a dying breed and thosee of us who did this stuff are disappearing. Now climbers think that they have a right to climb anything and if it is too scary then they think they should add a bolt. Bullshit. Sack up or keep off. Pretty simple huh? Do you want your generation of climbing to take the risk away? Wow, what a proud concept, to stand up and say, "My generation of climberrs took the gym outside and wee retrobolted old routes to make them safer" Proud indeed....

 

Fear is a negative emotion. Fear while climmbing can be verry stressful on some individuals. For the accomplished Gym climber to be afraid of making porrly protected moves on real rock must surely suck, but it sure does seet the nnubers straight too. I guess 5.10 is pretty hard when failing means a broken neck....

[RuMR]

Post deleted by RuMR

[RuMR]

but pope is still a tool...

[bwrts]

bwrts, you post under what is to anybody else a nondescript set of letters and there is no personal information whatsoever in your user profile. In fact, you ARE using an anonymous profile.

 

There's no problem with that - it is perfectly "legit" on cc.com, but you have failed to provide any identity or contact info whatsoever. For anybody who doesn't know who you are based on an obsession with cc.com, you have either actively or passively chosen to be anonymous.

 

What?...in English

 

And Ben, your new avatar took absolutely no time for myself, Rolf, Kurt, or Rudy to figure out, like 5 seconds!

 

christ man, I was not trying to ellude anybody with my name. I am sorry matt that I have not MADE the TIME to be MORE descript for the masses. Your name is pretty non-descript too... I mean P could = pobst or phillips or poseur... give me a break man.

Mark, you are very funny, I like it.

 

Bolts next to cracks or anywhere should be debated. It is a hole in the stone that is filled with metal and left until a chopper steals it or mother nature removes it (Eg rust or falling rock). I have placed many bolts over the years...mostly in Leavenworth, where I learned to climb and where I still spend many hours of my life wasting time. Most all of my bolts are clearly placed for many human heights to reach (something RR always avoided to fuk over WH with...). I also have been very conscience of where gear placements are in relation to bolts. As many of you know Leavenworth has not-a-lot of continuous crack systems or splitters like the shield of outerspace. Consequently many of my 1-pitch routes are mixed climbs, or gear routes with occasional bolts (not ice/rock routes). TO say you need to make a route safe for others is true and not true. You can be selfish and bolt for yourself but that is really dumb. You don't own the rock. Yes you did have the initial vision but suppose bill/jane saw the line too and just got busy with other more important things in life. Then bill/jane heads to cliff to discover red tags on bolts. Oh well. Ask Beckey about being skunked by Serl on some last great peak in the Coast Mts. (Jordop was telling me the story last week....Imho one of the best canadian stories to spray about).

So long in short. I will say K.I.S.S (cidiot) Bolts are an impact and you must choose wisely! OK now go back to work!!

 

one more thing, Rudy when are we going to brawl on the index crack routes??!

[mattp]

bwrts, your avatar name is NOT your name, but an unrecognizable set of letters that means nothing to anybody else. When we check your user profile, we do not get any identifying information whatever. My avatar is my name, my picture appears next to every post, and my user profile provides email contact as well as a home page that has my telephone number and address. I stand behind what I post here and make it very easy for anybody to track me down if they have questions about what I've said. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with being anonymous -- it is cc.com standard practice -- but don't try to pretend you are doing something else.

 

Anyway, though, good post. Bolts are indeed intrusive and permanent or semi-permanent installations that we should all think carefully about.

[RuMR]

anytime, ben, anytime!! ahahaha...need 4" of dirt on everything though!!!!

[matt_m]

Here are some Generalities that anyone who learned to climb post 1990 ought to consider. Why did I use 1990? Because by then Gyms were starting, and sport climbing was pretty well established

 

1. In the old days it was about minimal impact to the rock. If a climb seems real bold it was because the FA was trying to preserve the rock for the next generation-not build a fuckin bolt trail so you could fall your way up it.

2. If you still call FA's on real rock "coursesetting" either learn the difference between real rock or go back to the fuckin gym. On real rock you simply climb what is provided. That is unless you are chipping then you may very well be a "coursesetter". It is ill advised to claim you are that type of course setter.

3. Think you are a 5.10 climber? Try tossing the rope away? What grade do you climb at then? Is this not closer to your real climbing ability? This may be the extreme, but the fact is if you climb 5.13 in the gym, but cant climb a 5.10 offwidth you are not a 5.13 climber and not a 5.10 climber either.

4. IT used to be not all about the NUMBERS, but rather the experience. When sport climbing came into being, the big cry was "we need to increase our standards to keep up with the euros!". I wondered whose standards they weere increasing. Not mine. The standard they were increasing was the RATINGS. But what about that 5.10X. The one with little or no bolts. The one where you didnt even try unless you had your absolute shit together at that grade? Who is increasing that standard?

 

I like all kinds of climbing, but dont let your ignorance lead you to believe that some runout route was done because the guy was poor. Dont think that the FA team had an obligation to make it safe for you, that is utter bullshit. I do think when rapping and drilling a route that there is an obligation to make it safe, but ground up is different. Unfortunatley it is a dying breed and thosee of us who did this stuff are disappearing. Now climbers think that they have a right to climb anything and if it is too scary then they think they should add a bolt. Bullshit. Sack up or keep off. Pretty simple huh? Do you want your generation of climbing to take the risk away? Wow, what a proud concept, to stand up and say, "My generation of climberrs took the gym outside and wee retrobolted old routes to make them safer" Proud indeed....

 

Fear is a negative emotion. Fear while climmbing can be verry stressful on some individuals. For the accomplished Gym climber to be afraid of making porrly protected moves on real rock must surely suck, but it sure does seet the nnubers straight too. I guess 5.10 is pretty hard when failing means a broken neck....

 

And this is why the "new" generation of climbers doesn't give a crap about what the "old and bold" have to say. Statements like this do nothing to further the noble history of climbing - both bold run outs because of lack of funds or a desire to preserve the rock. Why would I listen to you let alone respect your opinion. I fully want to preserve the history and style of old (while looking to the future as well) and yelling that you walked to school uphill both ways certainly isn't the way to do it.

How do I do it then? I have the "youth" gym climbers read camp 4 or Rowell's Yosemite Climber. Great journals and stories about visionaries and their passion. Well written, and respected. Will every newer climber listen or care? Most certainly not. But calling every new climber a weak idiot virtually assures that they won't listen.

[bwrts]

my name is Benjamin William Robert Thomas Stanton = bwrts.

someday I may change my profile to reflect this but now thinking twice I do not care nor want to care enuff to change it. If you want to further discuss this idiotic technicallity then please PM me.

 

Rudy, bring it on beyotch!

 

Inacan (tom) we need dirt on the clean cracks to further challenge us in getting up index cracks. can you please accomadate us and shovel off another ledge system? Please.

[ashw_justin]

I'm happy as long as the gym-climbing is confined to the outdoor gyms (i.e. the exits) and the real climbing (i.e. Index, Leavenworth, the mountains) remains tightly regulated by rabid traditionalists, who will tear out your shitty crack bolts, and vibe your ass by taking a dump on the hood of your subaru when you try to come with that yuppie sporto attitude.

 

Besides, there is no steep rock except at 32, so why anyone would waste their precious redpoint time climbing or developing anywhere else is beyond me.

[Off_White]

Well Ben, bwrts, szy, whatever, your real world identity has not been a mystery to those in the know, but you should chastise your parents for their choice of middle names: Bill, Bob, and Tom exhibit a certain lack of imagination.

 

I'm glad to have your voice still present, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for the kinder gentler avatar to manifest. I think the edge comes from you, not the moniker you choose. That's not a diss, btw.

[tomtom]

you should chastise your parents for their choice of middle names: Bill, Bob, and Tom exhibit a certain lack of imagination.

 

Hey, now.

 

At least it's not Eric, or Matt.

[Peter_Puget]

Consider==>

 

 

[Off_White]

Kamps looks to be paying the same amount of attention, regardless of where the bolts are.

 

Personally, I just can't shake my old school upbringing: the leader must not fall. I've probably only taken a dozen leader falls in thirty some years -- it just doesn't feel right, and I can't let go of the idea that falling on a route is a failure. That's speaking strictly personally, I'm just fine with ya'll doing whatever, it's just about how I feel about myself.

[RuMR]

benny, little benny, it hurts to think twice, don't it??

[RuMR]

I'm happy as long as the gym-climbing is confined to the outdoor gyms (i.e. the exits) and the real climbing (i.e. Index, Leavenworth, the mountains) remains tightly regulated by rabid traditionalists, who will tear out your shitty crack bolts, and vibe your ass by taking a dump on the hood of your subaru when you try to come with that yuppie sporto attitude.

 

Besides, there is no steep rock except at 32, so why anyone would waste their precious redpoint time climbing or developing anywhere else is beyond me.

 

you are funny...i seem to remember you getting your ass just handed to you...

[mattp]

Benjamin William Robert Thomas Stanton, putting your actual name in one thread (or ten) does not change the fact that you have chosen not to put real contact info in your user profile and your screen name does not tell anyone who you are so that, on any given day when you want to insult somebody or be "provocative" in some other fashion, you and I and everybody else here knows that only the insiders actually know who you are. Like I said, though, that is OK.

 

Now what about the original questions regarding retrobolting?

[RuMR]

why don't you put that name in his title?? You mods always have no problems fucking with mine!!!

[billcoe]

why don't you put that name in his title?? You mods always have no problems fucking with mine!!!

 

 

I just noticed hat they changed your handle again. You must be paying extra. I like "Whiner Extraordinaire!" better than all the Horse-sex Enumclaw versions.

 

I'm still a wanker. Nothing new there.

[RuMR]

DAMMIT...DAMMIT ALL!!

[Off_White]

why don't you put that name in his title?? You mods always have no problems fucking with mine!!!

 

I think it's just that you're a proud nail, Rudy.