All climbers should read and comment

[Dru]

I found one of your "special" pamphlets while walking down one of your routes the other day

 

, however it was mistaken for TP and as that's the one thing forgotten on that outing it did come in handy.

 

If one was to get your autograph can it be sold on Ebay and how much should one charge?

 

Signed sealed and delivered!

[Buckaroo]

uh ohh, hope I haven't released dru's "devil inside"

 

[mtn_gnome]

I find that by climbing naked I typically get to avoid the "did you summit" question.

[mattp]

All good jokes aside, Rad makes a valid point. Due to media hype and also due to the fact that climbing is obviously a self indulgent and potentially dangerous activity that many people will never understand, we DO have difficulty explaining why people who will never climb anything more challenging that the steps at Safeco Field (and they want an elevator for that) should pay for roads serving our climbing area or support recreation planning and rescue efforts on public lands.

 

How many of us have a hard time explaning even to our family members, who clearly see how much we treasure our climbing days, why climbing is a "good thing?"

 

The banter on cc.com may be no worse than elsewhere on the web, perhaps, but it DOES tend toward a self-righteous discussion of how climbers are heroes and golfers or even hikers don't deserve to share the same lofty pedestal we reserve for ourselves.

[catbirdseat]

You could start an entire thread about why climbers have such inflated egos. Do we as a group have higher self-esteem than other "athletes"?

[barjor]

We are all narcissists and we like it that way.

[iain]

You could start an entire thread about why climbers have such inflated egos. Do we as a group have higher self-esteem than other "athletes"?

 

Your use of "we" describes a broad spectrum of personalities. I don't think climbers necessarily have inflated egos. You hear from those who do more often than from those who don't, which contributes to a misconception.

[Couloir]

There are complete assholes with inflated egos in every walk of life. I work with several. I would argue that people (climbers), in general, are a lot more polite in person that they SAY they are here. And that some of these responses we're reading here are more a snapshot of how people tend to bloviate on the internet in this type of forum than they do coming off a mountain.

[archenemy]

I find that by climbing naked I typically get to avoid the "did you summit" question.

 

Funny, the only time I get asked is when I'm naked.

[iain]

[Stefan]

You could start an entire thread about why climbers have such inflated egos. Do we as a group have higher self-esteem than other "athletes"?

 

Esteem is an important part. If you do not believe in yourself, then you are probably not going to complete a difficult route.

 

Remember Carl Lewis? I remember his interviews. Damn he was egotistical. But he believed in himself.

[archenemy]

Not necessarily true. People with low self-esteem often push themselves very hard to try and make up for deficiencies (real or imagined).

[olyclimber]

Not me, I'm trying to make up for other's deficiencies by packing this monsterous ego.

[Self_propelled]

As Northwest climbers we should consider ourselves lucky to have the public supported access that we enjoy, and be thankful that our sport is not completely over crowded, as so many others are. Imagine everytime you go out looking for a parking spot at the trailhead for 10 minutes and then paying $15 bucks to park there, or waiting behind a dozen people at each and every belay, or needing to reserve every climbing route a year ahead of time just to get the chance to try a new route. Thats what the average person goes through when they play soccer or attend ball games. We are sometimes inconvenienced with questions or a wait behind a slow climbing party but for the most part we are left to ourselves in vast spaces with lots of options. Plus, a lot of the infrastructure to do this is paid for out of public funds.

 

Enjoy what you got, be civil, and the nonclimbing majority will continue to be in awe of things we consider routine and let us have our space.

[archenemy]

We are the public.

[mtn_gnome]

Post deleted by mtn_gnome

[Double_E]

I swear, much of this thread, and the one which spawned it, have made me realize more than ever how arrogant, smug, and self-important some climbers are.

 

Intersting how some of the most super-hardcore climbers I meet, either in person or on websites, tend to remind me a lot of the computer geeks I've met in my time ... skinny, sort of odd/awkward/etc ... probably were outcasts and picked on in high school ... but then eventually got reeaally reeaally talented at something that they rest of the world can't do .... and consequently developed a lifelong smugness and arrogance towards the rest of society......including towards climbers like myself who aren't true climbers cuz we don't do "this" type of climbing or "that" type of climbing.

 

 

On the other hand, some of the-most-awesome people i've ever met have been climbers too.. which is probably part of the reason I got into climbing.

[mtn_gnome]

I find that by climbing naked I typically get to avoid the "did you summit" question.

 

Funny, the only time I get asked is when I'm naked.

 

Man, I'm sorry to hear that, for you and your...uh...climbing parter. Maybe you should like, ring a bell...or slap the pillow real hard... er something.

 

I hear there's prescription medicine that can help with this.

[archenemy]

I find that by climbing naked I typically get to avoid the "did you summit" question.

 

Funny, the only time I get asked is when I'm naked.

 

Man, I'm sorry to hear that, for you and your...uh...climbing parter. Maybe you should like, ring a bell...or slap the pillow real hard... er something.

 

I hear there's prescription medicine that can help with this.

 

I think you have misunderstood, but thank you for playing.

[SemoreJugs]

First off, amazing, eye-opening thread!

 

I couldnt agree more with the OP.

 

As I read through the thread, I started to notice the egos come out. EGO is a killer. Something I realized on Rainier this weekend. It also hinders one's mind and soul from growth.

 

No one is exempt from it. Double E hit the nail on the head. How different are we, really, from computer geeks in a spiritual sense? Sure we drink way less mountain dew but more beer and gatorade.

 

Ego was a huge problem in my own party as well as some of the parties on the Emmons last Sunday that were creating dangerous situations for others.

 

Take a hard look at yourself. Do you realize that you are no more important than anyone, or thing, on this earth? Look at Seattle from Rainier when the sunlight is reflecting off the skyscrapers, how insignificant does it look? Than think about how insigificant you must look on rainier from Seattle. We are a joke to the mountain. IF it so chooses, it can swallow us whole. But by some grace, it usually allows safe passage.

 

I come to the mountains to be humbled. And I constantly am. Sometimes, my ego gets in the way. Its a fight. Sometimes I think I am "better" than the "touron" asking about how the rope got up there. Sometimes I judge myself to be more worthy of a route than someone else. But I am realizing these are hinderances to my own growth as well as to connecting to others and helping to lift them up.

 

Despite our insignificance, we are not alone in this universe. That is the beauty of it. Lets move forward and lift each other up, instead of cutting each other down.

 

Carl SAgan's remarks on the famous "Pale Blue Dot" picture taken 4 BILLION miles from EArth by Voyager 1 in 1991:

 

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors, so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light."

Edited July 21, 2005 by SemoreJugs

[archenemy]

But how can we get/stay humble if we:

"move forward and lift each other up, instead of cutting each other down."?

 

Wouldn't that be moving backwards?

[SemoreJugs]

humbleness and weakness have no connection.

 

IT is only percieved that way. True power comes from liberation from the ego. Thats what I've learned from my experiences at least. And then look at figures from history...

 

The Dali Lama. Most humble guy you have ever met. Somehow, China entirely oppose him. There are still buddist temples in Lhasa. Ghandi. Never raised a fist, he was puny. Yet the entire british empire could not withstand his inner might. Nelson Mandela. Spent most of his life a prison. Yet they were afraid to kill him. Finally his power, which reached out to others, freed him.

Now his outward, external power is shining. It all begins from within by killing the ego.

 

Think of all the "great" iron-fisted kings and dictators that have fallen due to their egomania.

 

They really had no true power when people saw thru their posturing. Hussein acted like a tough-guy baddass. REally, he was afraid of everything. Thats why he had his close relatives killed. Thats why he killed thousands of kurds. Thats why he killed anyone that spoke against his regime (inside or out). He was afraid the truth would surface.

 

We saw thru his posturing and knew that he was actually quite weak. And where did we find him when we challenged his "mighty power"? Hiding at the bottom of a hole. Hilter killed himself. Has any oppressive egomaniac dictactor gone out in a blaze of glorious honor? I cant think of one.

[SemoreJugs]

arch. Okay I just reread your post and now it makes more sense. Just because you grow in power does not mean you have to get a big head about it. That is the pitfall of power. The secret is to limit and eventually kill the ego along the way.

[archenemy]

I am glad that you reread my quote and saw the intention behind it--but I still really like this post and would like to comment on it.

 

humbleness and weakness have no connection.

 

These two things (like all else) are connected. To get a better idea of how connected they are, get the perspective from one who is weak or powerless.

 

IT is only percieved that way. True power comes from liberation from the ego. Thats what I've learned from my experiences at least. And then look at figures from history...

 

"Ego" simply means "I". Perhaps you mean liberation from pride, viciousness, various character defects?

 

The Dali Lama. Most humble guy you have ever met. Somehow, China entirely oppose him. There are still buddist temples in Lhasa. Ghandi. Never raised a fist, he was puny. Yet the entire british empire could not withstand his inner might. Nelson Mandela. Spent most of his life a prison. Yet they were afraid to kill him. Finally his power, which reached out to others, freed him.

 

One could also argue that power is something that others entrust you with, not something that comes from you. What these men had/have in common is conviction and integrity (need a discussion later on this word); and others agreed with them. Thus, power could come from people acting in concert for what they want rather than being seperated from themselves.

 

Now his outward, external power is shining. It all begins from within by killing the ego.

 

Don't you find it odd that you refer to peaceful men using peaceful measures against oppression, but then use a violent, self-destructive image as a starting point?

 

Think of all the "great" iron-fisted kings and dictators that have fallen due to their egomania.

 

Usually, egomanics don't fall--they are taken down by people who are tired of someone else putting their own needs so far above all others that it is intolerable.

 

They really had no true power when people saw thru their posturing. Hussein acted like a tough-guy baddass. REally, he was afraid of everything. Thats why he had his close relatives killed. Thats why he killed thousands of kurds. Thats why he killed anyone that spoke against his regime (inside or out). He was afraid the truth would surface.

 

Maybe we should revive the fear thread--it covered a lot of ground.

 

We saw thru his posturing and knew that he was actually quite weak. And where did we find him when we challenged his "mighty power"? Hiding at the bottom of a hole. Hilter killed himself. Has any oppressive egomaniac dictactor gone out in a blaze of glorious honor? I cant think of one.

 

I can think of some, and will be happy to get into history in a bit. But what comes to mind right now is that we all end up in an earthen hole--egomaniacs and humble leaders. All of us are equal in that.

[sobo]

I always glissade down, so no one has time to ask me this.

 

Assless Chaps,

So is that how your pants got to be that way...?