Crampons & Flexible boots

[fenderfour]

I help teach the basic climbing class with Boealps. One of my students has a foot that is very difficult to fit, so I recommended that she get some lightweight strap crampons for her existing (and well fitting) backpacking boots. She went to FF and was completely lambasted by the customer service there. They told her that she would break her ankle and die and that they would never climb with her. WTF? I can understand the slap-dicks at REI pulling this shit, but FF?

 

Needless to say, as a new climber, she was pretty upset by the exchange and has decided not to shop at FF again.

 

How many of you use lightweight crampons on hiking boots for climbing?

 

On a side note - This student has a very small, low volume foot. Any suggestions for a women's mountaineering boot? I've suggested plastics with some custom liners, but that's a lot of cash.

[dbb]

La sportiva boots tend to have a narrow foot bed. she should check out a pair of the Trango S or like minded boot. That being said, light hikers and strap ons work great. feet get wet, but there are socks for that...

[Dru]

this is just glacier walking, right - not ice climbing. hell she could use a pair of golf shoes if worst came to worst.

[fenderfour]

Just glacier.

[chelle]

One thing to keep in mind about glacier climbing is keeping her feet warm. Wet, cold feet will not make for a good experience. If her current boots have a gore-tex liner or some other waterproof breathable, they might work fine.

 

La Sortiva is a good recommendation for small narrow feet. I have a funky set of feet to fit into boots-- small, high volume, and wide. PMS fit me up with a great pair of mountaineering boots. Send her there if she is commited to climbing and wants to get a pair of stiffer boots than her current hikers.

[mtn_mouse]

I recommended that she get some lightweight strap crampons for her existing (and well fitting) backpacking boots. She went to FF and was completely lambasted by the customer service there. They told her that she would break her ankle and die and that they would never climb with her.

 

This is common advise given from most mountaineering stores. I have always had people from the boot departments, no matter what store, say that crampons can only be used on mountaineering boots (leather or plastic) and never on backpacking boots.

 

Of course, as we all know, backpacking boots work well with crampons on easy/moderate glacier travel, where they are used only for traction, and front pointing is not needed. I wouldn't take offense from FF, probably just a liability issue they have to address.

[luwayo]

the first time i climbed ice was on 80d. stuff in my 3/4 shank leather backpackers, strapped to blunt 'n rusty G10s. they worked fine. my calves on the other hand were on fire all day.

 

...i continue with this combo for lite duty alpine, unless i feel insecure about a route and then i wear my shitty fitting plastics.

[Bill_Simpkins]

You can use crampons with tennis shoes.

Lowa makes good boots for narrow feet. Also Technica. I would look at their mountaineering boots and their waterproof hiking boots. What really sucks about some hiking boots is that the traction blows on the snow and you can't climb rock worth a damn in them. But if you are really selective, you can find one with quality traction and stiff enough edges to get around pretty good. Some of the hiking boots are just trimmed down version of another mountaineering boot. Also some tractions(even some vibrams) are too hard and slip on rock.

I would look for tractions with smaller sized teeth and good edges all round, good uphill traction in front and good heel traction. Some hiking boots have crap tread but still look cool, so watch out.

 

You may notice that with tennies or hikers that you have to put on thr crampons when a stiff mountaineer boot might handle the terrain without them. It has to get pretty icy before you need to put on crampons on a stiff mountaineering boot. In the class, she may have to put on her spikes before everyone else and wear them longer without stiff boots.

[Thinker]

I used a medium weight pair of leather Zamberlan hikers when I took one of the fabled PacNW climbing classes some time back (I'd never been on a glacier before and figured this midwestern boy should get learned a little.)

 

Anyway, the crampons seemed to trash the welt on the Zams in a few spots and help them leak a little. The other drawback of using a leather hiker, IMHO, is that step kicking tends to crush the toebox unless you are diligent about pushing them back out with shoe trees after each use.

 

just my 2 cents.

[thelawgoddess]

She went to FF and was completely lambasted by the customer service there. They told her that she would break her ankle and die and that they would never climb with her. WTF?

at ff you often get attitude. (pretty common experience among several people i know.) pro mountain sports carries some great strap crampons and they have experience (and/or customers) wearing them on lightweight boots and *GASP* even trail runners. i've worn crampons on timberlands before. they were ankle boots that definitely weren't meant for mountaineering or even backpacking really, but somehow i survived and had a great time to boot.

[Figger_Eight]

Post deleted by Figger_Eight

[fenderfour]

So...would you consider these boots appropriate for climbing Rainer and Mt. Baker? Are these boots enough to keep your feet warm on long slogs with a big pack, not to mention the amount of support needed when wearing crampons?

 

 

Funny, I think that is exactly what she has....

 

Oops, did I miss the sarcasm?

 

Yes, I think that they are enough. Would a full shank boot be more comfortable/warmer etc? Probably. Will these work? Yes, assuming you are using the right crampons.

 

What kind of support is needed when wearing crampons?

 

BTW-I don't carry big packs. Since she learned from me, she doesn't either. Rainier and Baker aren't exactly Denali.

[Figger_Eight]

I'll be brief. I was standing there when she brought these in and told us she eventually wanted to get into ice climbing among other things. She ran into one of our more colorful staff members (who has guided internationally) who many times speaks with tongue firmly planted in cheek. We tried a traditional leather mountaineering boot, which she didn't fit into, and talked about the pros and cons of leather vs. plastic. If this is the boot you're instructing your students to wear on big volcanoes...go nutty - that's not for us to debate. If they come in and ask for suggestions on appropriate footwear(especially if it concerns crampons), they'll hear something different. Absolutely you can wear crampons with sneakers to climb Rainier, but it still don't make it right

[Bill_Simpkins]

I have the same boots, male version and they have gortex liners. I am doing a 4 day alpine trip in them next week, including low 5th class rock and snow to 45-55 degrees. My friend is wearing gortex tennis shoes. Make sure the gaiters fit snug down low.

[spicoli11]

I've gotten by in some horid shit in leather backpacking boots w/crampons.......not that it was by choice......but I think you have enough info here to point you in the right direction. If she really gets into walking on ice and then wants to climb it......she can make the purchase then. Most people stop climbing in these classes after they summit "the mountain" anyway. slog slog slog......camp muir.....slog slog slog.........poop in a bag.....slog slog slog

[genepires]

The FF employee might have been on to something with their advice. It is not such a good idea to advise beginners to go with non standard climbing gear. (such as ultra light equipment) Suggesting that a beginner go with lightweight (or in this case backpackign boots) is asking for her having a miserable time or worse, an accident. Experience will show what works and what doesn't and a beginner class has lots of other things to be thinking about. Look at any guide service basic mountaineering class and they have plastics on.

 

Also I find it interesting that people have had negative experiences at FF. I have always had very helpful and friendly service there. I would like to have seen their discusion. I suspect that this woman didn't want to hear the advice and took offense to it. I doubt that any employee at FF would say "she would break her ankle and die and that they would never climb with her". Get real.

[miller]

fenderfour,

 

i am the FF employee in question. never once did i tell her that she cant put a crampon on that boot. nor did i ever even use the word "ankle". and never once was i anything but friendly to this student of yours.

 

im surprised that your student is telling you she had such a bad experience. she came in twice. the first time she came in she was on a break from work and i hurried around getting different boots for her and discussing pros and cons of different crampons. i basically spent a lot of time hurrying around from her so that she could get back to work on time - never once was i irritated or snobby with her, and i definitely didnt notice that she was irritated with me. we chatted about things non-climbing, and it seemed to be a pretty friendly exchange. she asked if she could return them if she changed her mind and i told her, "sure, it theyre unused and you have the receipt, thatll be no problem".

 

yesterday she came in for a second time to return the boots and crampons. she had her hiking boots with her and said she wanted to know if i could fit a crampon to them. i got one that was a spot-on fit and she seemed concerned about it. i told her that it wasnt going to come off, but yes, this boot was not made for crampons. i also noted that ive used similar crampons on approach shoes that are less substantial than her hiking boots and that basically i think they'd be just fine.

 

i guess the difference in stories comes from what you, the teacher, knows she will be doing in these boots and what she told us she would be doing. she told me that she would be ice climbing in them and that she would be climbing mt. rainier, mt. baker, and mt. shuksan. she also said she would like to have something that she can use for water ice climbing if she is in the area next winter. i dont believe those lowa boots are a great choice for any of those mountains, and i certainly dont think they would work for waterfall ice climbing.

 

it seems that both of us have been misinformed by the same girl. it seems that perhaps you shouldve clarified this before launching in to an attack on me and the entire store.

 

hope your trip goes well this weekend - have fun out there!

[mtn_mouse]

So...would you consider these boots appropriate for climbing Rainer and Mt. Baker? Are these boots enough to keep your feet warm on long slogs with a big pack, not to mention the amount of support needed when wearing crampons?

 

 

Funny, I think that is exactly what she has....

 

Oops, did I miss the sarcasm?

 

Yes, I think that they are enough. Would a full shank boot be more comfortable/warmer etc? Probably. Will these work? Yes, assuming you are using the right crampons.

 

What kind of support is needed when wearing crampons?

 

BTW-I don't carry big packs. Since she learned from me, she doesn't either. Rainier and Baker aren't exactly Denali.

 

 

So this is the boot we are talking about?, Welll.... I have rescued climbers on Mt Rainier with frostbit feet, and they had much better leather boots that those. Under the best of conditions, you might make them work, but these should not be used on rainier or baker.

[Mark_Husbands]

Fenderfour is cooking the books. I expect him to hit FF in June.

[Blake]

So where exactly does one draw the line between a backpacking boot and a "climbing boot"? For glaciers and hard snow/ice climbs, but not vertical ice, how important is it to have a full-shank boot compatible with step-in crampons?

Does anyone find boots like the ones in questions (heavy leather backpacking boots) usefull for the standard routes on the volcanoes, or do most folks use light hiking shoes on trail, and then specific stiff-soled crampon-compatible mountaineering boots for the actual climbing?

 

(the above coming from someone who has done all his snow/glacier climbs with heavy leather hiking boots and aluminum strap on crampons.)

 

It seems like a bit of a grey area, but I imagine that just about any boot you buy today is still better than the stuff Beckey and Co. were using in the 1940s.

[genepires]

Boots that beckey used would be thrown away by homeless people. One can only imagine what it was like to climb with the gear they had. Maybe one day I should try going "retro" with gear. Nahhh.

 

I have used the la sport glacier boot for all of our volcanoes and it works great. It is essentially a beefed up hiking boot with 3/4 or 1/2 shank. Always used flexi crampons on it.

I would guess the minimum difference between a hiking boot and a climbing boot is it's waterproofness. My glacier boots are very waterproof which is why I feel OK taking it on a glacier. Most backpacking boots have too many seams and fabric for leaking in water. And like mentioned earlier, wet feet in cold environs causes frostbite and worse.

[spicoli11]

Lets hope this girl doesn't lie to her ropemates like she lied to y'all.

[markharf]

You can use crampons with tennis shoes.....You may notice that with tennies or hikers that you have to put on thr crampons when a stiff mountaineer boot might handle the terrain without them.

 

This is absolutely right. I crampon a lot with old, beat-up running shoes and aluminum ("Big Red") cramps. Usually I'm carrying skis and boots, and usually I'm moving pretty fast, to the surprise of those wearing full-on gear. This works for anything non-technical, especially if someone else has kicked steps or if the pitch is relatively mellow. In warm weather I don't worry about getting my feet wet either: what's it matter? On a hot day, my feet will get completely sweat-soaked in plastic, leather or goretex anyway, so I pay no attention unless I start to seriously posthole. I've always got dry socks and ski boots for the downhill.

 

On the other hand, I'd hesitate to advise that a beginner (especially one with an apparent selective hearing disability) do this. I'm reasonably experienced, carrying alternate foot gear, and prepared to accept the consequences should I misjudge the weather, the route, my own fitness, or anything else. What's more, technical ascents are another story, as are cold weather and high altitude. Baker on a nice day: no problem. Rainier: probably not. Stormy weather: you'd be asking for trouble, but with the benefit of experience would probably be ok. Water ice.....laughable (but you wouldn't be using aluminum crampons regardless of your footgear preferences).

 

[/opinionated pontification]

Edited May 13, 2005 by markharf

[cj001f]

Boots that beckey used would be thrown away by homeless people. One can only imagine what it was like to climb with the gear they had.

It's alot easier walking on snow with hobnails.

[Figger_Eight]

Does anyone find boots like the ones in questions (heavy leather backpacking boots) usefull for the standard routes on the volcanoes...?

 

For clarification, I wouldn't even consider them heavy leather backpacking boots. As worn in as they were, they were about as bendy as a pair of basketball shoes.