Missing Discussion of Outer Space Slowpokery

[Macson]

When I'm on a highway, four cars behind a slow driver, I never get mad at the slow car....just at the cars in front of me who are afraid to pass.

[Dru]

You can get caught in a line up anywhere but when the line up on the freeway is caused by two grannies driving their electric wheelchairs side-by-side in the slow and fast lanes, you might get steamed.

 

So far the desicussion has been about the "right to be there". Maybe the discussion should be about "aspiring to climb in good style"?

[fheimerd]

Thanks for keeping it real. The frustration was understood and duly noted. We didn't really know what to expect on the route and had we known the situation that people wanted to pass we certainly would have obliged. It's all our playground so let's play nice. I definately think we as well as everyone else had a right to be there. That people had to wait was unfortunate but could have been avoided if people had arrived earlier. My advice, if you know it's a popular route get up early and then you won't have to wait so long. Early bird gets the worm. Otherwise thanks for letting uus know about your frustration and I will definately be a little more consciouse of the people behind us on the next climb.

[Peter_Puget]

Good style is climbing in a safe manner despite feeling the pressure from those pressing you from behind yet too timid to actually ask to pass.

[Dru]

I have no sympathy for the timid in the line up but I still feel that good style would have been to climb a route within their ability to free. In this case it sounds like the desire to do a specific route might have blinded them to the fact it was a bit above the level they could climb in good style.

 

I bet there weren't any lineups on Orbit or Champagne. In fact had they been on a less travelled route they could have climbed without the pressure from behind you mention (is that anything like the reacharound?)

[Peter_Puget]

The other options could have been used by the parties with the later start. The odd thing is many consider Orbit to be a better route and it usually has less traffic. I for one do not understand why people like OS so much. The only pitches that I have ever enjoyed are the handcrack pitches and they are a pain to get to.

[scoe]

This is all pretty funny. During one of our extended waits on OS, I mentioned to the oringial poster that someone should start a thread about this on CC. We then talked about how the thread would play out and this is pretty much what we had envisioned. I was actually pretty psyched when I found out that the original thread got deleted so I could avoid getting sucked into the frey. Alas, I could not resist.

 

As for passing, there were other factors at hand. I did not feel it was my place to tell the party in front of us what to do, especially since it was the leaders first long climb after recovering from a broken ankle.

[Peter_Puget]

. I was actually pretty psyched when I found out that the original thread got deleted so I could avoid getting sucked into the frey. Alas, I could not resist.

 

Yup telling someone they suck via the internet is always hard to pass up!

[chucK]

Thanks for keeping it real. [...] and I will definately be a little more consciouse of the people behind us on the next climb.

 

One thing to keep in mind is that everyone is "fast" when they are waiting behind another party. Often parties of equal or lesser ability can run up behind you at an isolated crux pitch. It's probably a good idea to sniff out for yourselves the relative competence of the party behind you. Don't just assume that some party momentarily chomping at your heels is faster. Otherwise you might be slowed down by the passing operation and then also be stuck behind a slower party!

 

Also, if you see four parties waiting up at the ledge, you have seriously miscalculated if you think that it's gonna clear up by the time you arrive! Remember that there's only four plus pitches to the top from there! That is, that party now at the crux will basically need to be topping out before you get to climb.

[olyclimber]

Well scoe, if you don't have a conversation, then nobody will learn. Anyway the thread was deleted as part of an international conspiracy against polish bob. You can blame dru for dredging this gem back up from that debacle. So it sounds like the guy with the mending ankle is partially to blame in your case. Maybe we can get a post from that party to bring this full circle?

[scoe]

"Yup telling someone they suck via the internet is always hard to pass up"

 

I don’t believe I ever said that.

 

"Well scoe, if you don't have a conversation, then nobody will learn. Anyway the thread was deleted as part of an international conspiracy against polish bob. You can blame dru for dredging this gem back up from that debacle. So it sounds like the guy with the mending ankle is partially to blame in your case. Maybe we can get a post from that party to bring this full circle?"

 

Please, the party in front of us was perfectly fine and I hope, if they are reading this, they show better judgment than I did and stay away. Unfortunately, conversing through this medium is sometimes less than ideal for learning. I apologize to everyone involved if my original post came off as pretentious or otherwise. I was just trying to cast some light onto the situation.

[mattp]

I'd be a little cautious to urge everybody to think they can or have a right to pass any slower party. Also, as ChucK points out, just because you catch up to and wait for a party in front of you does not mean you are any faster or more competent then they are -- every popular route has its bottlenecks where parties tend to wait for others.

 

Passing in the middle of a climb can work out OK if handled properly and with the right attitude, but it can make things very complicated and everybody has varying levels of comfort with sharing ledges, anchors, etc. It can be a great way to make a serious mess.

[mec]

Please, the party in front of us was perfectly fine and I hope, if they are reading this, they show better judgment than I did and stay away.

 

Ahh, someone new learning the dangers of posting on cc.com.

 

Posting here can be fun, but you also have to remember to take everything with a grain of salt. Most of the stuff posted is complete BS, but once you wade through it, most everyone I have met that are routine sprayers, are pretty cool people!! We do welcome these discussions, and generally no direct offence is meant. People just bitch about everything!!! Its human nature.

[Peter_Puget]

Scoe –While you never said “suck” explicitly you did say:

 

“…it was pretty ridiculous.”

 

“I just think you guys were in over your heads and the fact that you did not realize/nor acknowledge this was what upset me off the most.”

 

“For me your pace would have been tolerable had I not known…”

 

“While I agree climbing is about challenging yourself I don’t think french freeing a route like outerspace, which occurred multiple times, is all that challenging”

 

 

 

I agree with Matt about passing. There was a similar thread several years ago where one poster slammed slowbies and bragged of how he passed them just by pushing his way thru. A sshort time later he was in a serious accident on easy terrain. Accidents can easily happen anywhere.

[Dru]

Nobody passed on this climb either. Some eerie parallels!!

[selkirk]

I have no sympathy for the timid in the line up but I still feel that good style would have been to climb a route within their ability to free. In this case it sounds like the desire to do a specific route might have blinded them to the fact it was a bit above the level they could climb in good style.

 

I bet there weren't any lineups on Orbit or Champagne. In fact had they been on a less travelled route they could have climbed without the pressure from behind you mention (is that anything like the reacharound?)

 

Yeah, but they did get it free, and it was within their abilities. Just close to the limit of their abilities.

 

So who deserves more to be on the route? The party challenging themselves, close to the limit of their abilities, doing it more or less from the ground up for the first time, and moving a little slowly because of it?

 

Or the party who's climbing below their limit, has done the route before, and is just looking for a nice day out on good rock, in a nice setting?

 

As for a less traveled route? That's what I want to be climbing when i'm pushing myself, some dirty, empty POS, because it's convienent for people doing laps on a trade route

 

Maybe it's because I'm still learning, but I'd give preference to the group challenging themselves, after all, that's what this whole little game is about.

 

Good on you guys

10 to 1 I'll be clogging up the route myself later this summer

[Dru]

Yeah, but they did get it free,

 

you must have missed the testimony of the witnesses who said they pulled on gear through all the cruxes.

[olyclimber]

Please, the party in front of us was perfectly fine and I hope, if they are reading this, they show better judgment than I did and stay away. Unfortunately, conversing through this medium is sometimes less than ideal for learning. I apologize to everyone involved if my original post came off as pretentious or otherwise. I was just trying to cast some light onto the situation.

 

What other medium actually reaches the most climbers to have a discussion about this? Sure, there is plenty of tomfoolery here, but there are also quite a few people that are interested in having a serious conversation about stuff like this (without personal attacks).

 

Mattp and a few others have made some pretty good points about passing and stacked up routes. It sure seems like postive remarks to me. The alternative is to stew in your own juices about the whole thing.

[chelle]

I think it is kinda funny how some folks are most upset about the pulling on gear and are using that action as the evidence that the group did not belong on the route.

 

I will likely get slammed for this but... Who the F^CK cares if they pulled on gear! It may have actually sped things up and allowed the parties behind to climb sooner.

 

Just because a route has gone free, even the majority of the time, does not mean that someone should not come along and feel free to pull on a piece of gear if they need to. But then maybe the people being critical have never uttered or thought... "It's an alpine route so anything goes. It's all about getting to the top safely and getting down before dark."

 

If the party in question had brought aiders with the intent to aid climb it that might be objectionable. But they didn't.

 

Outerspace is an alpine multipitch climb. Sometimes people might find the need to pull on a piece in order to get into the right stance or to the next hold. Why? Because he's tired, or he's feeling rushed by the parties behind, or because that piece of gear is placed in the spot where his hand would fit. So what! Get over it. No two people will climb a route in the same way. There are way too many variables like height and hand size, or comfort with cracks vs. face moves. Worry about your own style and stop being so critical of other people.

[chucK]

Maybe the discussion should be about "aspiring to climb in good style"?

 

I think it's a laudable goal to always try to climb a route in good style, especially on a classic, popular route.

 

Having been on both ends of the stick, I can tell you first hand that:

1) it's fun to be on your game.

2) it's no fun to flail while a growing number of grumbling parties pile up below to witness your thrash and dangle.

 

Like a freeway, a popular climb gets a lot of traffic, and all it takes is one driver/party to cause a lot of people to end up waiting. Sometimes things just don't go as you expected. One can underestimate the difficulties, overestimate one's strengths, and/or just plain weird stuff can happen. You might get stuck behind people, or you might be the plug.

 

I guess my conclusions are no-brainers, but here goes: On a popular multipitch climb...

 

1. Don't expect things to go smoothly (i.e. not have to wait).

 

2. try to honestly estimate your ability to complete it in good style. If you're testing your limits, then everyone (including yourself) might end up happier if you test yourselves at someplace or sometime less crowded.

[selkirk]

Yeah, but they did get it free,

 

you must have missed the testimony of the witnesses who said they pulled on gear through all the cruxes.

 

my bad. Though the occasional french free would only have served to speed them up. Given the circumstances probably a better decision then trying to free absolutely every move. I'd still rather seem someone climbing close to their limit and pushing in a safe manner than always climbing something well within their comfort. What's the fun in that?

[chelle]

True, true, Chuck. But I also think that experienced parties who don't want to wait in line on a popular route that some view as a test piece, should not plan to head out on a weekend and cruise the route unless they plan to get there first. Or if they are so good, they could just plan to go in the late afternoon and cruise up when everyone else is almost topping out.

 

I have some friends who had a bunch of people tell them they were stupid for racking up to hop on Zebra Zion late in the afternoon. These two guys said, "whatever" and proceeded to simulclimb the whole thing in less than a half hour and had plenty of time to walk off the top in daylight. I hope the critical people on the ground felt a little foolish.

[Alpinfox]

I can't believe I'm posting on this thread.

 

Anyway.

 

Hey gumbies, look, yes you have "just as much right" as anyone else to be on any route and you can aid the shit out of it and piss everyone off if you want. You certainly have that right.

 

Just don't be surprised when people get pissed off at you.

 

I don't believe in RULES in climbing, but I do believe in etiquette and I think it was rude of you to take 17 hours or whatever to climb one of the most popular routes in WA on a busy weekend. Go climb some single pitch 5.8/9 stuff in the icicle and some two pitch climbs like Givlers Crack and get the multipitch shit dialed before you step up to SCW. edit: Midway and Saber on CR are other good options for easy multipitch.

 

You'll cause and recieve a lot less grief that way, you'll keep yourself safer, the world will be a better place, the ozone layer will heal up, and endangered Laotian snaffles will find room to thrive in this crowded, polluted world. Everything will be great.

 

And Selkirk, orbit and champagne are certainly not "dirty pieces of shit". Apparently you don't know shit.

 

 

Alpinfox out.

Edited May 12, 2005 by Alpinfox

[chucK]

Such a pompous post! Have you never had people stack up behind you?

[chucK]

True, true, Chuck. But I also think that experienced parties who don't want to wait in line on a popular route that some view as a test piece, should not plan to head out on a weekend and cruise the route unless they plan to get there first.

I guess that was my point #1.

 

Or if they are so good, they could just plan to go in the late afternoon and cruise up when everyone else is almost topping out.

That could be a dangerous plan on Outer Space. I have heard of many stories of outoftheir leaguers being benighted before topping out. Wouldn't want to climb up behind that! Course, you might get to be a big hero by saving all the gumbies by leading them down the notorious SCW descent. Might be a good way to earn some beers or other favors!