Retro Bolting at Index

[flashclimber]

Im going to retro bolting a few routes at Index this year. NO! Im not adding any bolts...just replacing the old rusted out bolts that add 3 grades to the route. If you have a favorite route bolt or anchor that needs replacing please post it. Im considering spending $200-300 on bolt and anchor replacements at Index this year. (I just got a pay raise). "Terminal Prepie"-bolts and anchors for sure. Any others? I'll listen to all comments before replacing them in April!

[chucK]

Top pitch of 10% could use stand some bolts replaced last time I checked (2 years ago).

 

In case you aren't trying to start a flame war, a better term would be "bolt replacement" (there is still probably time to edit the title of your post). But if you want a lot of views for this thread, your current title will probably do the job!

[scott]

the pitch between godzilla and slow children -- the first and only sucks and it is right off the anchor.

[flashclimber]

I agree with u guys on both of those routes...especially "slow children" that 1/4" is pretty funny to look at..the one right above it could use a new bolt too. nIll check out 10% in the next week to see how bad it is...weather permitting.

[chucK]

With respect to that bolt of City Park p2 (the pitch between Godzilla and Slow Children), you can get a good nut in, in a much better place than that bolt is. You can even double up with more tiny wires. The only thing that bolt is really good for is for a foothold for those who can't make that first hard move. Though that bolt is sorta small, it is surely good enough for a body-weight foothold.

 

I'd say just leave that one alone, or even pull it and patch the hole. Or if you really want to stir up a hornet's nest, pull it and place a new bolt up higher in a place that actually makes sense for pro.

 

There's another bolt on that pitch that was replaced just a few years ago. Bomber.

 

I don't remember any bolts on Slow Children, except at the belays.

[Blake]

Semi off-topic.... what's the consensus on the reliability of that pin on the first run-out frictiony part of GM? Last time on that route the bottom was wet, and I had to make some sketchy moves to clip the pin where I was in range of a seriously big fall/pendulum. Do you think it's more psychological pro than anything?

[cman]

i will second chucK, that bolt on city park p2 is not necessary, probably the most constructive thing that could be done is to remove it.

as for GM we were just wondering about that last weekend, it probably has some strength to it. hopefully the bottom anchor would prevent you from hitting the ground if it pulled, but maybe not

[Alex]

flashclimber, check your PMs

[Peter_Puget]

Why do you think the bolts on TP need replacing?

 

I don't think any of the bolts on the second pitch of City Park (between Sloe Children and Godzilla) need replacing.

 

ChucK - 10% has several pitches, do you mean the top of the route or the top of a lower pitch?

[flashclimber]

All the bolts and the anchor need replacing on Terminal Prepie...I worked that route last year..no long falls..but all the bolts are rusted..its a slab and water runs on it all year...ill be replacing the bolts with titanium glue-ins so they last longer...Hey guys I wont change any bolts on any route where someone is threatening to chop them..its just a waste of time and stupid..I.E. "Cunning Stunt" if u guys remember that fiasco. But there are a lot of routes that need bolt replacement and im willing to put the time in! Sloe Children bolt? We'll see...if ur tall its easy to by-pass that 1/4"...Personally Ive never used it since there is that nut placement right above it...however if the FA says its ok..then Ill change it.

[Peter_Puget]

Are you using the USHBA bolts? What glue will you use?

[flashclimber]

Ushba recommends using a Hilti glue http://www.ushba.com/catalog/tortuga.htm

There is also a Rawl drop in tube glue...ill most likely use the manufacture recommendation.

Fixe also makes a stainless glue in...ill look into all options prior to Aprils bolt replacement.

[lancegranite]

A friend of mine took the wipper on City Park P2...hit the ledge and bounced off.

I wonder if he would like to see a new bolt?

As a fellow height challenged climber, I appreciate the crusty spinning 1/4'' relic. It gives me the confidence to pull the wierd, reachy crux, I think I backed it up with 2 wires last time...

[backcountrydog]

myself and a couple other locals replaced many old bolts within the last year at index, also replacing worn webbing at anchors w chain. there are at least 2 organizations that will give you free bolts and chain for replacing old anchors only (not for new placements). so you dont have to spend your money flash, just put in the time...do some scrubbing to will ya?

[backcountrydog]

for conversations sake...

have you ever put any glue-ins in before flash? the reason i ask because if not, trying them out on an established rt might not be the best choice...? they can be problematic to place and if you dont get them right, they need to be replaced and then your left with more (bigger ) holes to fill. if you have, then you know wht i mean. i personally think that new stainless bolts would be just fine on TP. your right, it is a slab, but it doesnt run w water all year, only when it rains, and everything runs w water then. the hangers on TP look worse than the bolts (which dont look THaT bad to me). so if your taking concensus i would say just use some easy 3/8 stainless (maybe a 1/2 on the crux bolt if your worried), especially if you've never placed glue-ins.

either way, good on ya for the effort.

[RideT61]

There were some old bolts on the arete next to the chimney pictch of the lizard the last time I was there. I'm not sure if they have been changed or not but the route looked like fun but I wussed out because of the old 1/4" bolts and the fact that I'm a crappy climber and knew I would be falling on them...

[AlpineK]

Semi off-topic.... what's the consensus on the reliability of that pin on the first run-out frictiony part of GM? Last time on that route the bottom was wet, and I had to make some sketchy moves to clip the pin where I was in range of a seriously big fall/pendulum. Do you think it's more psychological pro than anything?

 

That pin has been there for 20 years. It's not as good as when it was first placed; I wouldn't want to fall on it. At this point placing a bolt next to it may be an option to consider.

[chucK]

ChucK - 10% has several pitches, do you mean the top of the route or the top of a lower pitch?

 

I mean the top of the top pitch (p5?) of 10%. There is a 5.9 slab up there with two bolts. Both are 1/4"ers or smaller (?). The first one (the important one in terms of protecting more probable fall) is pretty rusty. The other one is small but not rusty. The anchor at the top of the pitch has one big bolt and one buttonhead.

 

Are buttonheads basically suspect and replacement candidates?

 

If so, there are two buttonheads on Terminator (a short sorta-fun climb between Winky Dink and the Shield), one of which could see a pretty good whipper on it. Also the top anchor (which this climb shares with another dinky climb) is three buttonheads.

[Rafael_H]

The second pitch of City Park, towards Sloe Children, has been climbed as is for years. It is protectable - the bolt should not be upgraded, or repositioned, IMO. Remove/patch would be nice, if the bolt is unsafe for aiding.

[flashclimber]

If buttonheads are on a route and necessary to climb the route...Im game to replace them! Guess Ill be climbing a lot of the classic routes this year to check out what needs replacing.

 

..."GNS"? how are the chains up there? Last time I was there (3 years ago) there were 3 thin old rusty chains linked together. Im sure they are safe but how 3 stainless steel chains instead?

 

"Air over Aries" and old Yoder slab climb. Anyone been on that in a while? Im gonna scrub it down and check out the bolts on it (I wanna add it to my tick list).

 

Hey Chuck, I was looking at the topo of 10%...Ill see about getting up there (never been to the 5th pitch on 10% before)..the topo makes it look like there are 7 pitches...Ill check out the anchors too (anyone ever aid it to the top before? I solo aided it to the 3 pitch)

 

"City Park"..probably wont touch the lower bolt on pitch 2...sounds like people want it removed rather than replaced...but how about the 2 bolts higher up? They any good? Pitch 3...anyone been up there this year? I was up there 2 years ago..does it need cleaning again?

 

"Phone calls from the dead"...gonna take a look at that route while on "GM"...Could be a fun route to work this year!

[Blake]

Semi off-topic.... what's the consensus on the reliability of that pin on the first run-out frictiony part of GM? Last time on that route the bottom was wet, and I had to make some sketchy moves to clip the pin where I was in range of a seriously big fall/pendulum. Do you think it's more psychological pro than anything?

 

That pin has been there for 20 years. It's not as good as when it was first placed; I wouldn't want to fall on it. At this point placing a bolt next to it may be an option to consider.

 

 

The rest of this route is compromised by a bad start IMO. The tough bouldery direct start, or a unprotected traverse through blackberries on a wet sloping ledge, then only a suspect pin after the single belay bolt. It seems like a little gardening and/or pin replacement might be in order.

[slothrop]

The two upper bolts on p2 City Park are HUGE (and stainless, if I remember correctly). The lower bolt is pointless. The ledge is big and the belay is good, so I don't see why you'd want to even clip the bolt, which won't save you from hitting the ledge.

[flashclimber]

So a question I have for everyone is the ethics of "Should a bolt replace a 20 year old pin?"

 

I know the pin on GM is an old relic...It does make u feel better when u clip is since there is a nice deck to hit if u fall...then u get to roll down a steep black slab...I dont know the answer to this question and Im not about to place a bolt and find out...If anyone knows the FA and can get a solid "Yes..please replace" then Ill see about changing it...but until then...I aint touchin it!

 

Ill be at Index on Wednesday..weather permitting..to check out the Slabs..Rogers..snake...and few others...Ill list the ones i see in need of replacement.

 

Thanks to all those who sent me a PM in regards to where I can get free bolts and anchors to replace the old ones. Ill look into it.

[mattp]

Flash,

 

You are off to a good start by beginning your efforts with an inquiry here before you head out to Index to start your service project.

 

If you have not already, pursue similar discussion elsewhere, too, because cc.com does not necessarily represent all Index climbers. Also, as you gather opinions of the FA's of any route in question, I am sure you will find (or may already have found) that at least in some cases their opinions may not "square" with those of many current climbers in the area.

 

It sounds as if you plan to err on the side of caution. That is a good idea. Especially with regard long established routes in a popular climbing area, many climbers have strong opinions and a sense of ownership whether they were involved in the first ascent or not. That first bolt on the second pitch of City Park is a good example: the climb is such a popular one that many climbers have extremely strong feelings about it and you will find strong opinons about moving/upgrading/chopping/doing nothing. The same is probably true of that pin on GM.

 

Good luck!

[Sol]

So a question I have for everyone is the ethics of "Should a bolt replace a 20 year old pin?"

 

NO, pull the pin and replace it. If it looks like you will destroy the placement by funking it out, use other means. If nothing will work, clip it with a screamer. What it you put a bolt next to each of the 12 or so very old fixed pins on the triple roofs pitch of Town Crier? Likewise, the 2nd pitch of Green Dragon (crux)would be completely dumbed down it the 3 or 4 old pins at the crux were replaced with bolts.

 

The anchors on top of the first pich of Narrow Arrow Direct, and the anchors on top of the second pitch, are in dire need of chains. Currently they are composed of massive amounts of tat which makes the bolts quite difficult to use.

 

Word on the street is that both Abraxas, and The Golden Arch could use upgraded anchors. on your quest to upgrade.