Mr._Chips Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 My Avitar? It's doing it's work then. As for yours though, PUSSY? It also brings to mind childhood innocence. And with all those "kids" last night, this could spell PEDOPHILE!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dru Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 How dare you impugn Hello Kitty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted November 8, 2002 Author Share Posted November 8, 2002 Like I said before in my original email, the sling will remain a mystery. Something happened, and I don't know what, not even the people who went back could figure it out. That's life. That's how it's going to be. Just be safe out there and remember that nothing is full proof 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbconlin Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 cheers to being alive still i broke my talus before--it really sucks. make sure to do physical therapy as soon as you are able. i think that would have saved me much trouble and permanent/lasting/chronic problems to this day. i know lots of people (usually non-climbers) who think rapelling is fun. most climbers i know (at least the smart ones) hate it. it definitely is a huge risk. again, glad you survived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bug Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Stefan. You said it was a fluke. I respectfully disagree. You made a mistake my friend. Don't do it the same way ever again. I have done the same. I continue to climb with that knowledge burning into the back of my head. I never take anything for granted. No found sling is safe without a thorough inspection. No found achor, etc... You and I were lucky and survived. I am sorry you have such a bad injury. Not all my friends have survived this sport. I hope your injuries heal quickly and your pride can handle the truth. You have to change something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoboy Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Bug: Stefan. You said it was a fluke. I respectfully disagree. You made a mistake my friend. Don't do it the same way ever again. [snip] I hope your injuries heal quickly and your pride can handle the truth. You have to change something. Watch out, I think we are headed the same way as the "I've been humbled..." thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnMike Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Okay professors, here is the photo of the runners at the station as found without moving anything. If I am not mistaken, everything looks fine (Green & Pink runners are old and tattered). http://www.mtnmike.com/TT/anchor_.jpg I think its time to stop questioning what failed move forward with Stefan’s recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leejams Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Just another thought, perhaps it wasn't the anchor at all. If he was downclimbing and just using the rope as balance and somehow grabbed only one rope instead of both he could have lost his balance and slipped off? Hope you have a speedy recovery stefan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted November 8, 2002 Author Share Posted November 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by Bug: Stefan. You said it was a fluke. I respectfully disagree. You made a mistake my friend. Don't do it the same way ever again. I have done the same. I continue to climb with that knowledge burning into the back of my head. I never take anything for granted. No found sling is safe without a thorough inspection. No found achor, etc... You and I were lucky and survived. I am sorry you have such a bad injury. Not all my friends have survived this sport. I hope your injuries heal quickly and your pride can handle the truth. You have to change something. Interesting. I remember a report of a woman who died on a sport climb. She was climbing on a rope that had been toproped. She took a leader fall and fell to her death. The reason was the rope had a defect. Manufacturer problem I believe--something about where two ropes were joined. No climber could have found that problem. A good man died recently at the coulee. I haven't followed the thread exactly, but as I recall it may be a biner failure. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) Second man goes down on a sling and for some reason the sling disengages on the second man. I didn't just rap on any sling. Yes, I did inspect the sling (that's an obvious thing everyone should do). Yes I even pulled on the rope (twice) before my partner went down first to make sure the sling could hold. I will continue with the same practice. Someday a harness will break.....what then? someday a rappel ring will break....what then? someday a rappel device will break...what then? Not every piece of equipment is reliable 100% all the time even though you have to put all your trust in it. If I climb Liberty Bell again, I will rap off those anchors that are set up--and yes I will inspect them before I use them....but if they fail....I guess that would be my fault.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted November 8, 2002 Author Share Posted November 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by leejams: Just another thought, perhaps it wasn't the anchor at all. If he was downclimbing and just using the rope as balance and somehow grabbed only one rope instead of both he could have lost his balance and slipped off? Hope you have a speedy recovery stefan. Good question. But, sorry, nope. My partner would have to pull the rope down as it was only about 30 feet in length to the sling from the bottom. My partner did not have to pull the rope down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sk Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Steph- I hope you are able to get arround comfortably soon. take it easy sk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidW Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 My best to Stefan and wish him a speedy recovery..... I havent been able to make much sense of this however..... what was the "anchor"? Fixed pins? Rock horn? Chockstone? Having survived a rappel failure myself I'm pretty curious...... how is it that people who picked up the gear havent been able to ascertain what happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allison Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 The sling that Mike and Stef used to rap off of has not been recovered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEF Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 I’ve been quietly following this thread, and remain disturbed. The lack of a clear explanation makes it harder to “move on.” We all want to avoid this ourselves, but what exactly is there to avoid? We seek to know what failed here so we can be more vigilant about checking for that possibility before committing to future anchors. Anchors simply do not fail and then appear just fine on inspection afterward. The picture does not show what failed. It shows several slings, with knots that appear to still be in place, but the sling actually used for the rap rope is not identified. Was it missing? Clearly something failed, yet those who inspected evidence remaining on the scene are saying nothing there appears to have failed. That contradiction remains bothersome. At this point, I do take from this the lesson that using more than one sling to anchor a rappel is prudent. Where a bunch of slings are available, I’ll use as many as possible, inspect closely, and perhaps even fortify them with a new one of my own. I add my best wishes to Stefan for a speedy and full recovery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iain Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Good point Steve. I've been reading too and would rather not chalk it up to voodoo. It would be nice to know which of those slings was the culprit. Crazy stuff has happened, like those guys who tried to rap off an abalakov but accidently fed the rope through the long tail of the knot, which was frozen in the ice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr._Chips Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Yes Steve, an excellent point made. I would be on the case more-so if there was no clear and tangible evidence, which there seems not to be here. With all those slings on the station, only ONE was used. I agree, I try to use as many as possible along with one of my own if req'd to "fortify" (as steve said) the existing station. I can only think that it was your sling that failed, whether by rope burn, cut on rock, or knot failure. Bizarre that the sling was not recovered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegetablebelay Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 quote: Originally posted by SEF: . The picture does not show what failed. It shows several slings, with knots that appear to still be in place, but the sling actually used for the rap rope is not identified. Was it missing? I saw the same thing you see in the picture and I came away mystified. I initially thought something along the lines of Iain's example of the Abalokov had potential, but since Stefan was the second one down it didn't make sense. The only thing I can think of is maybe the suspect sling just came untied and was blown away later by the hovering helo. Still just a guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimL Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Unfortunately bad things happen in this sport to many good people. Sometimes we are able to figure out the cause, others the best we can do is speculate on possible scenarios of what went wrong. After speculating so much, it seems like the discussion reaches the same results as a cat chasing its own tail. I think we should be thankful that Stefan is recovering and not dead, and that he has decided to share his story in a public forum, something I would not do if it were me. Hopefully Stefan will be able to recover fully and enjoy the beauty and freedom that climbing offers all of us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr._Chips Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Sorry, just one more question........Was there a reason you did'nt thread the rope through any of the existing sling at the station. Just a routine question. (voice for above should be Peter Falk) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr._Chips Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Yes Tim, how eloquantly stated. And on that note, I will leave this one as an unsolved mystery......Unless Stefan, you find some more insightful information to add to this queery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr._Chips Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted November 9, 2002 Author Share Posted November 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by SEF: I’ve been quietly following this thread, and remain disturbed. The lack of a clear explanation makes it harder to “move on.” We all want to avoid this ourselves, but what exactly is there to avoid? We seek to know what failed here so we can be more vigilant about checking for that possibility before committing to future anchors. Anchors simply do not fail and then appear just fine on inspection afterward. The picture does not show what failed. It shows several slings, with knots that appear to still be in place, but the sling actually used for the rap rope is not identified. Was it missing? Clearly something failed, yet those who inspected evidence remaining on the scene are saying nothing there appears to have failed. That contradiction remains bothersome. At this point, I do take from this the lesson that using more than one sling to anchor a rappel is prudent. Where a bunch of slings are available, I’ll use as many as possible, inspect closely, and perhaps even fortify them with a new one of my own. I add my best wishes to Stefan for a speedy and full recovery. All I know is that the one sling I used, failed. Two slings in the future every time I do a rappel? Maybe. Depends on the situation and how many slings I have left in my arsenal. I have used one sling around bomber trees to rap off of and I would probably continue with that practice if I decide to do any more rappeling again. I believe many of you out there will too. But just to say you will ALWAYS use at least two slings is ridiculous. At least 2 slings at every rappel would be ideal--sometimes idealism runs into reality when you are out there. What about that time when you have to leave a piece of pro behind? Will you leave two pieces of pro behind to back up your anchor? Some will. Some won't. Everyone makes their own decisions when the time comes. Nobody wants to die or get hurt. Why didn't I bother to back up my sling with those that show up in the picture? I chose not to use those slings because they were tattered and worn. My sling was near but not in that bunch of slings. I believed those slings shown were unsafe when I was there. I chose the sling I used becuase of its relative newness, the way it was rapped around a rock, no sign of wearing, and was bomber when I pulled on it before my partner went down first. I decided to not back it up with the worn slings becuase the angle with the sling I was using was not conducive to the angle of the rappel--it meant the angle of the rope would be somewhat "triangular" and if the worn slings broke, then I could forsee an angular fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Posted November 9, 2002 Author Share Posted November 9, 2002 quote: Originally posted by TimL: Unfortunately bad things happen in this sport to many good people. Sometimes we are able to figure out the cause, others the best we can do is speculate on possible scenarios of what went wrong. After speculating so much, it seems like the discussion reaches the same results as a cat chasing its own tail. I think we should be thankful that Stefan is recovering and not dead, and that he has decided to share his story in a public forum, something I would not do if it were me. Hopefully Stefan will be able to recover fully and enjoy the beauty and freedom that climbing offers all of us. Thanks Tim. Nicely said. I suck at writing good words. Right now I have casts on both legs. My right leg which took most of the fall and was operated on. I have a 1/4 inch plate by 6 inches on my tibia(is this the small bone?) on the outside with 8 screws. On the lower section of my fibia on the instep (I think the big bone) I have an angular screw (1 inch) and a pin (1 inch) with a wire attached to it for holding it in place. Due to the tightness of the cast I can feel the plate on my outside leg. My left leg has a fracture on the neck of the talis bone(sp?). No surgery required, but I will probably get a second opinion. Both casts come off in 4 weeks. Then therapy starts on the right leg for mobility. I will wait on the left leg for another 4 weeks for any therapy as the doctor strictly enforces NO WEIGHT bearing on that bone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEF Posted November 9, 2002 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Stefan, I commend you for returning again to clarify. The result is a clearer, if still incomplete understanding. I fully understand that you will find revisiting the subject sensitive, but assure you that clarity, not criticism, is my goal. You have some rather daunting injuries, not all of which are physical. I hope you find some comfort that your efforts in posting here will help others. I know I will certainly think of you when I inspect my next rap anchor. Still unanswered is the question of whether the sling that failed is missing. If, as you seem to suggest, its original location was outside the frame in the posted picture, then we cannot know from that. Obviously, finding that sling would be key to determining the failure mechanism. Your description of the sling inspection that you made before the downclimb omits any mention of the knot that was used or the length of its tails, which rather stands out to me. I do know that the water knot is prone to creep, especially over repeated weight and un-weight cycles, especially in very supple tubular webbing. Once the tail enters the knot itself, the knot can suddenly fail without warning when weighted. Other rappelling accidents have resulted from such failure. I can't say that is what occured here, but it is a strong possiblity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slabinator Posted November 11, 2002 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Hmmmmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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