Winter?

[fenderfour]

Disclaimer - I'm not pissing on ayone's achievements this year. I'm just curious:

 

A friend and I were discussing FWA's this year - Do you think that they will be maligned by future climbers as a "2005 FWA", meaning that the mountains weren't in full winter conditions?

 

Is a winter ascent about the date in which the climb is done, or is it about the conditions encountered?

[olyclimber]

I seem to recall a long, drawn out discussion of "winter conditions" vs. "winter season". The first relies on more on luck, and the second more on skill.

You could have super crappy conditions in the middle of summer, and does that make your climb anymore notable? Maybe from the perpective of story telling or chestbeating, but not from any "official record" stand point. Unless the records are changed to reflect conditions (i.e. First Ascent In the Winter in Extremo Conditions - FAITWIEC vs. First Ascent in the Winter in Summer Conditions - FAITWISC), then it is a FWA regardless.

 

That said, I would think that any official record will note that the conditions were exceptionally summer like this summer. *Edit: Whoops, I meant this winter. Freudian slip.

Edited March 3, 2005 by olyclimber

[olyclimber]

The thread.

[Dru]

you can have winter conditions in april or november, and it won't count as an official "winter ascent". therefore, to balance out, you can make official winter ascents proudly under abnormal conditions (like now).

[fenderfour]

Will future climbers malign FWA's done this year, or will they just see the first ascensionists as lucky for the great weather?

[Bogen]

Even in these conditions, it's still winter up there. Conditions are variable, cracks are iced up. There's much less margin for error than a summer climb. Kudo's to those that had the balls to nab 'em this year.

 

But what the fuck do I know.

[Dru]

Future climbers will have these conditions every winter, due to climate change.

[Alpinfox]

Dru:

 

Winter ascents must occur during the calendar season of winter. It's just too complicated, subjective, and arbitrary for record keeping purposes to try to establish what "winter" conditions are, so we simplify it by using the calendar; even though it's not a perfect descriptor of conditions. It is a unique characteristic of winter routes that they can be quite different from season to season. That's just part of the game.

 

However, I agree with Olyclimber that many of the FWAs this season will have an asterix next to them (if not in actual print, then at least in the minds of those who know what it was like) stating that this was not a typical winter.

[Dru]

I dunno, many of the FWAs this winter have been done by climbers who have been waiting 10 to 15 years for these conditions.

[Alpinfox]

I dunno, many of the FWAs this winter have been done by climbers who have been waiting 10 to 15 years for these conditions.

 

Colin has wanted to climb the NR of Stuart in winter since he was 5 years old!?!?!

 

He is even more badass than I thought.

 

edit: I am certainly not denigrating the accomplishments of any of the FWA folks this year; they have all been impressive efforts (except for those hacks on Cruiser), but in a normal winter, I don't believe many of those routes would exist. I don't mean that they were EASY this year (again, with the exception of Cruiser), but that the ice/rock would have been buried under so much loose snow in a normal year that the routes would not be feasible/possible/safe.

 

How many more FWAs will we see this weekend!?!

[AlpineK]

I figure the way things are leafing out and growing we're about a month to 6 weeks ahead of schedule. By this logic winter ended between February 7th and the 21st.

[olyclimber]

Moderators, this thread doesn't belong here! Please move to the Climbers Board Forum.

[selkirk]

Is that a first? A thread actually moved out of spray?

 

WTF! The sunshine must be gettin to ya'll and addling your brains.

[Squid]

Like Dru said, in the future, the winter of 2005 will be remembered as 'burly'.

[klenke]

Some climbs can be harder in winter if the snowpack is less. So that's the flip side of things. Un-covered brush, un-iced couloirs (Triple Couloirs, for example), un-snowed-in couloirs resulting in rock climbing where there usually is none, un-bridged crevasses, gaping schrunds, objective rockfall hazards where rocks are usually held fast by winter snow and ice, etc. etc.

 

So as Fox said, it should only ever be judged by dates alone. An FWA is an FWA. Winter conditions are winter conditions. The two are separately defined but most often do overlap.

Edited March 3, 2005 by klenke

[dberdinka]

No winter conditions here...

 

 

Damn, none here either...

 

 

Looks like freaking August!...

 

 

Why aren't they wearing T-shirts?

 

 

If this gets sent those wankers better add an asterick...

 

 

Interestingly enough the depth of the snowpack has very little to do with whether winter conditions exist or not. For those people who actually got out and tried something, it will be rememebered as the best conditions for technical alpine climbing in a long time and quite wintery as well!

[skykilo]

Paul

 

I'm pretty sure you didn't mean mutually exclusive.

 

As a math geek I'd like to expand:

 

Winter is neither necessary nor sufficient for winter conditions.

 

Winter conditions are neither necessary nor sufficient for Winter.

 

However, the two are highly correlated. I'll finish with a Venn Diagram.

 

Here is a Venn Diagram of Winter and Winter Conditions. Note the large overlap, but also the nonempty complement of the intersection.

 

And here, for instructional purposes, are two mutually exclusive sets.

 

 

[skykilo]

I like your style there d.

 

In the same vein:

 

Where's that pesky winter?

 

Oh yeah and the days are still short too.

 

[olyclimber]

And since they won't move it out of Spray, here is a handy chart for you all to track your status compliments of Squidly:

[Dru]

The only people wearing shorts these days are stinky hippies and college students,

Therefore

It is still winter.

[klenke]

Right you are, kilo. Edit made. Had to think a minute to come up with an alternate description.

[AlpineK]

 

Looks like excellent early spring conditions.

[jmace]

I was thinking it would be more like ice climbing where you may have climbed a 5 in 3 conditions, fair is fair. How do you go and do the second ascent of slesse during this winter and compare it to the first. a quick look at the weather back in 86, pretty sure that was the FA year, 83 cm of snow fell on the ground in chilliwack during the month of February. Now thats winter!!

 

yes NE butress, thx, at least I got the year right.

Edited March 4, 2005 by jmace

[Dru]

The FWA of Slesse was made in the 1950's

Maybe you are thinking of the NE Buttress