SNOWMOBILE ACCIDENT... WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT SNOWMOBILES ON MT. BAKER???

[AlpineK]

Tomrogers,

Without the efforts of many climbers there would be no Alpine Lakes Wilderness, North Cascades National Park. David Brower past president of the Siera Club did the first ascent of Ship Rock. The Mountaineers, despite many bad things, have done more to promote the preservation of all those scenic shots you like to take than you are ever likely to do.

 

If you ban everyone from the wilderness then there will be no group to advocate the preservation of it.

I think there are many groups that have a right to our public lands. Yes there will always be impacts; the important question is how do we minimize the impacts. I think noise and exhaust are subjects that can be solved. People getting in your photo is just another problem like lighting that photographers should deal with without whining.

[nolanr]

To be objective, it should be noted back country skiers, boarders, and even climbers trigger avalanches as well, they are just as capable of using poor judgement as snowmobilers. With that out of the way, I would prefer no motorized vehicles were allowed in what I would consider "wilderness backcountry" areas, whether that's BLM, Forest Service, National Park, or whatever. I agree with several prior posters that motors seem contrary to the wilderness experience, due to noise, emissions, and relative ease of travel compared to traveling under your own muscle power. But that's just my opinion. As it is there are areas open to snowmobiles, motor bikes, and other kinds of ORV's and there are powerful lobby groups working to defend that right or even expand the areas open to them. I certainly don't advocate open hostilities or causing physical harm to people with differing views on how wilderness areas should be utilized. With our friend Mr. Bush in the White House it might behoove us to not fight against other wilderness users and concentrate our efforts on stopping him from setting U.S. environmental policies back by several decades. But that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Okay, off my soapbox.

[Backcountry]

I couldn't help but point out the irony that in one post, and admitted, that gregm was perhaps hinting, even in jest, that harm come upon anyone, while then using the "bastard" machines to serve his purpose.

I've hiked and climbed for many years now and have gotten into snowmobiling only in the last two.

Here's my 2 cents....

In a comparasion of areas that climbing/hiking activities are allowed in comparasion to areas that snowmobiling is either allowed, or is feasible, I find that there are FAR more areas to partake in climbing/hiking. As a snowmobile rider we are mostly limited to either the roads, partially treed areas, or clearcuts, and in the case of Baker, snowfields and glaciers. Simply from the basis of what's fair as far as areas to partake in the "activity" of our choice, climbers and hikers have the "advantage".

A little snowmobiling 101, just the basics to address the issues of sound and 4 stroke engines. Sound. There are several companies who HAVE taken heed to address the issue, as well as the manufacturers. We both face the same issues, it seems almost paradox like, WEIGHT.

Granted we've got this nice souped up 115 horsepower engine, but every pound counts. Snowmobiles drive systems are inherently inefficient and therefore don't transfer nearly that HP to the ground. Where does weight fall into this, well, one of the cheapest and easiest ways to shed weight from your sled is the OEM muffler. As mentioned this has been noticed by several aftermarket hop-up companies that realize that sound IS an issue and have begun to maufacture both lite-wgt and quiet silencers.

4 stroke engines are heavy in comparasion. Sleds already weigh in around 500-520 pounds, not counting the snow packed in the rear suspension(600 is easy). Add an engine that produces half the power for the given equal displacement that weighs twice as much. Again, it's power to weight ratio. To be able to acess the areas that we find appealing for some of the same reasons, takes a skilled rider and some umpf to move the now 800 pound rider-sled combo thru the same oft desired powder.

I posted this topic over at a snowmobile site to get some attention to the undercurrent of contempt that I see from climbers/hikers towards snowmobilers in general. I read the climbing reports from last year at Baker and two reports I found intriguing. One mentioned no route info, only that there was trash, and the other again had minimal route info, but a dedicated and focused attack that the "end of the world" had become Baker. I was up on the mountain the same weekend that the climbing report was filed. Unless, because I was zooming around so fast and recklessly that I didn't see it, I found that the Easton/Schriebner area to be in pretty good shape given the amount of use it sees.

My point is that the both "sides" do commit offenses, the fire pit at Peggy's Pond, the frozen bags of piss at Muir, the terds on the Ingraham Glacier, the beer cans left behind, the sound-issue, entering wilderness areas. Point is, I think that this reflects society because it IS society.

If you buzz a climber, I half expect to get an ice ax in my dome, you park RIGHT behind a sled trailer, expect some attitude back. As climbers we feel elitist and a notch above the "rest", we should feel that way, we go and do things most people only think about, if they even know "its" there. As snowmobilers, we feel that we have a limited area to apply our craft and that impingment upon that from climbers or hikers that park RIGHT behind my sled trailer, or submit "glorified" route reports in an effort to get snowmobiling shut-down warrant an attitude back.

In closing in my rant here, I think that we need to both look at our impact, daily and in the future. We need to save our lands for us, not from us. I try to do my part to help educate and inform both sides, often getting alot of attitude back from fellow riders or climbers. I think that I feel compelled to tell some asshole to pick up his beer can or tell someone not to go into the ALWA(Ingalls Lake for instance) and then maybe ask a climbing party to not dig a ditch around thier tent or erect yet another rock wall, because next day/week/month/year we might not be allowed here anymore.

[jon]

Before people jump all over tomrodgers it should be pointed out that maybe he is offering what the view of a non-climber would be, not necessarily his own opinion.

[nolanr]

Somehow I missed the wonderful wisdom Tom Rogers shared with us. Uh, Tom, this is a climbers forum. I don't think you're going to find much support for your "ban all climbers" policy. I really hope you're joking. If you're pissed off because your wonderful photo-op was ruined by a climber hanging on a rock wall or tracked up snow, I have a few pieces of advice: get there earlier, or go somewhere further into the backcountry where it's less likely you'll run into a climber. That makes about as much sense as banning skiers and snowboarders from mountainsides because they leave all those nasty trails behind them and it doesn't look as if no one has ever been there before. If you want pictures of completely untouched places where no human soul has tread before, there's plenty of that in Alaska. But if you show up to click a picture, guess what, it's not untouched by man any more. Sorry to single you out, but you're post doesn't make much sense. Sure, some climbers are rude jerks, some don't practice very good eco-ethics, but to lump them all together and say climbers suck is false and narrowminded. To get to where you were at to take a picture, you probably left boot tracks in the snow. Are your boot tracks somehow better than a climbers boot tracks? If you've ever hiked on a muddy trail (and if you live in the NW you can't avoid it), then you probably left some evidence of your passing that wasn't very sightly. Seems this might be a wee bit hypocritical of you. If climbers are self serving, maybe you are, too. You just want to remove anything that gets in the way of you getting that perfect photo. Like all of those other damn hikers or tourists. If only you were the only one allowed in the Cascades, all of your photos would turn out perfect.

[nolanr]

Sorry Jon, I already jumped on him. Point taken.

[dbb]

Tom you troller...

All you guys flaming him can remember that when you clip in to the solid belay bolts on town crier--he put em there.

[AlpineK]

I liked the old Fred bolts. Sketch!!

[mattp]

I understand why skiers and hikers might not want to see snowmobiles on Mount Baker - I don't like to see them there myself. But consider this: as far as I know, the Easton Glacier is the only glacier in the State that they are allowed on. And it is probably one of very few that they could even get to. If you don't like them, there are other places one can go.

[vegetablebelay]

"Or the many times I have wanted to take a picture of a wonderful snow slope or rock face only to find it spoiled by a climber in the midst of it"

Tomrogers you are either an idiot or you're attempting to start another thread on the Spray category. You sound like a recent fellow who tried to drop some knowledge without saying anything.

Vegetablebelay (you better recognize)

[This message has been edited by vegetablebelay (edited 04-16-2001).]

[vegetablebelay]

Ok, sorry to hog the podium, but here's one for Backcountry.

Backcountry, you're comparison of abuse in the backcountry neglects to detail the abuse of your engines and tread on the environment compared to that of a climber. The un (or lightly) muffled engines and the tread of the snowmobiles harm the wildlife (with noise and exhaust), the soil (with the tread and compacting of soil - recently mentioned in the clearing of the North Cascades Highway if you check their site), and the plants and trees (with the exhaust and the tread running over downed brush). You cannot compare this with a bolt or a sling.

As far as your Snowpark infringements, a climber or skiier pays (in theory) for the same Snowpark pass that a snowmobiler with a motorhome, or SUV (always with a large trailer attached) that you do. If you feel that you need more than one parking spot for a fifty dollar fee (required in several or our local snowparks), than perhaps you should plan on buying an additional pass. You take up more room in the parking areas, and (my bad if I'm incorrect) you aren't paying any additional fees or licenses to drive your machines in the backcountry. It was interesting in the related story about the jet ski vs kayak incident earlier. If that sh*& went down with a snowmobile here, there are no licenses or other identifying marks on snowmobiles to identify those who commit the infractions. A victim of such an offense would be pretty much S.O.L.

Vegetablebelay doesn't like the snowmobile lobby.

 

[gregm]

I've edited this post because:

1) It was pointed out that it might be interpreted as advocating murder, which I do not.

2) It was pointed out that I have used snowmobiles. I have only used them where it was legal to do so and not in restricted backcountry areas, but I understand not everyone will agree with the distinction.

Greg

[This message has been edited by gregm (edited 04-16-2001).]

[Backcountry]

quote:

---

Originally posted by vegetablebelay:

Ok, sorry to hog the podium, but here's one for Backcountry.

Backcountry, you're comparison of abuse in the backcountry neglects to detail the abuse of your engines and tread on the environment compared to that of a climber.

As far as your Snowpark infringements, a climber or skiier pays (in theory) for the same Snowpark pass that a snowmobiler with a motorhome, or SUV (always with a large trailer attached) that you do. You take up more room in the parking areas, and (my bad if I'm incorrect) you aren't paying any additional fees or licenses to drive your machines in the backcountry. It was interesting in the related story about the jet ski vs kayak incident earlier. If that sh*& went down with a snowmobile here, there are no licenses or other identifying marks on snowmobiles to identify those who commit the infractions. A victim of such an offense would be pretty much S.O.L.

Vegetablebelay doesn't like the snowmobile lobby.

---

I'd agree to a certain extent that there is some harm done to the "environment" from misuse of snowmobiles. Speaking only from my experience, I only ride in naturally open areas, or clearcuts(with the exception of trips to Baker). Clearcuts in my opinion are a managed area with partially mitigated damage already occured. If I run over a tree top in a clearcut I wouldn't think much of it in comparasion of NOT running over some heather at altitude.

My Sno-Park beef is that all most snowmobilers are asking for is that you leave about 8 foot of room behind our trailer to facilitate loading. It's almost like coming down the hill and finding that you have a flat tire, it's extra hassle for a little consideration to leave a little room.

There are no blazing ID marks on a sled and it shouldn't be necessary either. Is it necessary, no, I would think it would almost be akin to saying "I know you're going to do something wrong, so we need to ID you". I think that the jet-ski instance above is a tad on the rarer side than most average users.

Snowmobiles are required to pay to register thier snowmobiles(ORV tag) and get a SNOWMOBILE sno-park permit, not valid anywhere else than a snowmobile sno-park, so someone like myself I have to pay for more than one permit. We also pay the same gas tax as if we were a improved road user.

I'm somewhat content with the areas that we are currently allowed to snowmobile in. Again I'd like to point out the viable areas that we can ride in are in comparasion much smaller. Therefore I think also with that, there's a forced density, so you'll see higher instances of abuse. Again, I think, also as mentioned before that it closely mimics the rest of society and it's daily abuses. Not that it's right, but it requires a total solution, which isn't likely to be easy to come by. I find road side camping far more abusive and agreegous than any snowmobiler abuse anyday.

Save our lands for us, not from us.

[vegetablebelay]

Backcountry,

Wow 5:45 - you snowmobilers get up early!

Thanks for the reply - I didn't know about the ORV pass.

As far as the parking situation goes, let me get this straight. You would like your truck (8-10 feet), your trailer (another 10 feet), and then an additional 8 feet? Forget two Snowpark passes, I think you need three!

On the lack of licenses or other distinguishing marks on snowmobiles, you're point is taken - it basically is guilty until proven innocent. Wouldn't you agree though that if the anonymity of riding snowmobiles was somewhat removed, riders would stay within their boundaries and adhere to the rules either written or implied?

I most agree with your last point which was about saving the land for us, not from us. I don't think either user group is going away, so we'll eventually have to figure how to get along.

 

Vegetablebelay

[Backcountry]

5:45 shoot, I'd been at work for 45 minutes already...Something can be said for early start time...get to enjoy the long summer days better...

I know, I know, we're long and big...most guys aren't...

As far as the anonimity of snowmobilers and using that as a controlling mechanism to keep them out of restricted areas, that's a tough one. Enforcement would be tough. It would be like calling the cops while on the freeway saying that there is a guy speeding, his license number is XXXXXX. The cops aren't going to do anything, I think legally they can perhaps, but are they going to start pulling people over simply because someone called in reporting it. I would have to say though as climbers/hikers, we typically have a camera with us, and that if for instance we did see someone over into Ingalls Lake, then perhaps a photo and a registration number could be sufficient proof to enact some form of fines/ticketing.

In Canada they have helo's that patrol the wilderness area looking for such violations, will our wonderfully inefficient beauracy start to spend funds on this, not likely in the near term. However, at Adams, the Yakama Indians do patrol thier area, and it is mostly and widely known that they do and many people avoid riding there. Unlike the HUGE plywood sign at Ingalls, Adams is poorly marked. I think that if there were only a few people caught and fined for entering the ALWA, then the word would spread and people would again(or begin to) respect that boundary and others like it.

[This message has been edited by Backcountry (edited 04-17-2001).]

[philfort]

To clarify the snowmobile sno-park permits thing (ORV tag, etc....).

Snowmobilers do *not* have to *pay* for sno-park permits. They come "free" with registration, which costs less than 20$. (or else, registration is "free" with the sno-park permit, depending how you look at it). I think I paid $18.75.

That's right, it's about the same price for a skier to buy a sno-park permit than it is for a sledder to register his vehicle AND get a sno-park permit. Sure, the snowmobile permits are only valid at snowmobile sno-parks. However, those are often groomed areas. Where trails are groomed for non-motorized users, these users must purchased an additional 20$ grooming permit, 40$ in total!

PRetty funny!

[Backcountry]

According to the Washington State Snowmobile Assoc. Here's some info:

All funds from your snowmobile registration fees and fuel tax refunds directly benefit the sport of snowmobiling in Washington State by providing:

Trail grooming programs

Sno-Parks and sanitary facilities

Sign programs

Snowplowing

Equipment purchases (groomers)

Safety and Education programs

Administration of State Parks Snowmobile Act

Law enforcement

An average Saturday I burn at least 8 gallons if not 10 gallons of fuel. Now multiply that by an average of at least 20 rides a season, that would most likely equate to the extra twenty dollars paid for groomed trails by non-motorized. Don't forget trailer licensing too...

[This message has been edited by Backcountry (edited 04-17-2001).]

[erik]

dbb,

what are you talking about?

Tom you troller...

All you guys flaming him can remember that when you clip in to the solid belay bolts on town crier--he put em there.

who?

i know those guys who did that. no tom in the team.

 

[Rodchester]

and still...snowmobiles suck.

------------------

Have a nice day.

[erik]

NO, MOBILES

The Bush administration yesterday let stand a rule approved by former

President Clinton to ban snowmobiles in Yellowstone and Grand Teton

national parks, but it said that it hoped to craft a compromise in

the near future to amend the rule and allow some snowmobile use to

continue. The rule, finalized on Clinton's last day in office,

outlaws recreational snowmobiles in the parks by the winter of

2003-04. To the dismay of enviros, attorneys working for Interior

Secretary Gale Norton are trying to reach a settlement with

snowmobile users, manufacturers, and others who have sued over the

ban. The U.S. EPA has found that snowmobiles cause "significant

environmental and human health impacts."

straight to the source: Los Angeles Times, Deborah Schoch, 24 Apr 2001

<http://www.latimes.com/news/science/environ/20010424/t000034604.html>

straight to the source: Billings Gazette, Associated Press, 22 Apr 2001

<http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?section=wyoming&display=cont

ent/wyoming/0snowmobiles.inc>

YEAH!

[Alpine_Tom]

"...a trail 6 inches deep and 2 years wide" huh? That's pretty wide.

If TomRogers is so concerned about the environment, what's he doing photography for? Don't you know that the chemicals involved in film processing are a significant source of water pollution?

[Rodchester]

And still...snowmobiles suck.

------------------

Have a nice day.

[Dru]

Canada has helicopters that patrol the backcountry looking for unauthorized snowmobile use? I WISH! Maybe if the helicopter avalanche patrols used their bombs properly.....

Snowmobiles are great tools to approach ice along snow covered logging roads but I don't like them in the alpine on glaciers any more than i like dirt bikes, 4x4's and logging trucks in alpine meadows. Most of the avvy fatalities in Canada this winter were snowmobilers and heliskiiers. Tells you something eh?

However the patron saint of active resistance (St. Ed Abbey) noted that if you take some flagging tape and bury it just under the snow along a snowmobile trail the sled sucks it up into the treads then it melts on the engine and acts like sugar in a gastank anyone tried this technique out?

[snowman]

I think if you look to see where the money is coming from to pay for grooming and upkeep, you'll see that it comes from snowmobilers registrations. how much money as climbers are we putting back into the improvement of moutain roads and cleanup? very little! I made a early spring mt dickerman trip were the snow was melting at the parking lot, tons of hiker trash.Leaving trash is a personality trate of a person not of a sport. Jeff was a friend and is missed dearly by his family and friends.

[Eerie]

Dru - that f-ing lame man.